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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 9:30 am Post subject:
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Firstly, don't use ars as a backup for arguments, because if by ars you mean "The Battlefront" then I'm sorry, but it's just a bunch of idiots spewing noise about topics they know nothing about.
Secondly.. some corrections: |
 Poor BF. But even Win users were having a hard time arguing with the numbers and the numbers were from linked sites.
In short, the argument seemed *quite* solid.
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1. Microsoft was not "first with NT and IIS". |
? I said that MS was moved first into the web by releasing NT and IIS. Did they have a strategy/product before NT/IIS? They might have but I never heard of one...
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2. IIS is not a "free product" because it requires Win2k Server to support more than 10 simultaneous connections. It's free in much the same way as the first hit of crack is free. |
For 3/4 of all web sites, 10 users simultaneously is more than enough.
If you're talking enterprise, I'd acquiese that the situation would be different but, again, where is the evidence that MS is concentrated in *large* hosting venues? IOW, large sites with massive traffic?
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3. MS server marketshare is not eroding. Most Ars people don't know what they are talking about, and have stupid Penguinista agendas anyway. They are best ignored. |
Yeah, 30%-30% in the last couple of years is *kick ass*.
:/
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4. IE didn't win because Microsoft was "giving away something for free". Netscape was always free |
Netscape wasn't "always free". Stop sippin the crazy juice. Netscape used to be saleware, not freeware. They had to move to a freeware model because MS was plugging it in every copy of their OS...
It had nothing to do with "better/worse" because, in the end, there were problems with both browsers. Most brain dead Joe Schmoes simply used the browser that was included on the machine for free and, much like our court system has discovered, MS first forced Netscape to stop charging and then coerced OEMs into not carrying Netscape.
THAT killed Netscape, not the utter shite IE 3/4, which didn't start to show some nads until version 4.5...
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5. I said "The XBox is not a failure". You said "No, the X-Box is losing money". These are not the same things, not by a long shot. |
The Xbox is currently a financial failure. If I told you that Apple lost a signifcant amount of money with OS X and that it wasn't adopted well at all, you'd call that a failure. MS may turn this momentary failure into a success but that doesn't change the fact that they're losing substantial amounts of money and that the Xbox is a failure....*now*.
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Sony lost a shitload of money developing the PS2 and continues to lose money on every box (slowly, economies of scale kick in and the loss goes away, but by that time it's nearly time for the next generation of consoles anyway) |
Sony's making a killing with the PS2, so I have no clue where you keep getting these affirmations of profitability for MS and fiscal trouble for others...
Here, Sony themselves admit existing PS2 profitability:
www.sony.com
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- PS2 has secured its position as the leading computer entertainment platform. PS2 business will now be expanded and continuing profitability confirmed (hardware/peripherals/software). |
But yeah, you don't accept Sony's word(not that I blame you) so here's another link:
http://www.videobusiness.com/article.asp?articleID=3514&catID=14
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| In terms of software, 27 million units of PS2 software was shipped, an increase of 15.5 million units, and 13 million units of PlayStation software, a decrease of 5 million. |
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| In the company's games division, sales were $1.3 billion during the quarter, essentially flat with sales last year. Sales of the PlayStation 2 faltered in Japan but picked up in the United States and Europe as a result of the price cut to $199. Worldwide, 4.59 million unites of the Playstation 2 were shipped, an increase of 250,000 units from the previous year, and 670,000 units of the PS One, a decrease of 2.54 million units. |
But again, it's not like Merrill Lynch forecasted that MS would need FIVE years to make back it's money on the CURRENT Xbox iteration right?
Oops..actually, they did:
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Microsoft Declines Comment on Xbox Profitability
Microsoft declined to address a recent report that it would take five years to reach profitability with its new Xbox video game console, saying the forecast by Merrill Lynch was based on assumptions that were the brokerage's own.... |
http://www.megagames.com/dc/dc_news_0103.shtml
So, again, we could go in circles but MS isn't doing well at all with the Xbox, despite beliefs on this board, that Gates is the second coming...
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The money is in the SOFTWARE, and to win in that arena you need marketshare, which Microsoft is slowly getting. It's a tough battle, and people (idiots) on Ars like to say things like "PS2 30 million! XBOX 4 million!" but they (as usual) miss the entire point-- Microsoft is starting from ZERO and YEARS BEHIND! That they have done even this well is impressive. |
No, what's impressive is if they can carve out a niche, which remains to be seen.
MS may need to make their cash in games but they're doing pretty poorly in that respect(which is why, again, I recommend that they make their console PC game-compatible)...
http://www.the-magicbox.com/topten.htm
EEK! Not ONE game in the top twenty as of August 18th this year. Granted, it's Japan but we hear all the time that Xbox is doing ok. They're doing horrible in Japan, not much better in Europe and tepid, at best, here. They're a flop. Period.
Good job MS! 
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Microsoft has FORTY BILLION DOLLARS IN CASH and they add to that war chest by about a BILLION dollars a MONTH. Think about that for a moment. What's worth more to Microsoft, losing a measely billion dollars in marketing and costs for the XBox, or not having an XBox at all and letting Sony dominate the living room forever? |
First of all, money doesn't do Microsoft any good unless they USE it. That's why I get miffed at MS and Apple when I hear that they have billions in the bank. Billions in the bank as a cushion is a great idea, as long as most of the cash is being used to evolve and grow the business.
What good is 40 bill to MS if someone comes along and swipes their OS leadership? No good. I personally think they're saving for SOMETHING. What? I don't know. But if they aren't, then my respect for MS would have dropped significantly because money in the bank is *never* preferable to money used to grow the business and add to its survivability.
j.
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Lovin' Mely.
Last edited by Madan on Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how anyone ever expected Hotmail to make money.. it's a FREE SERVICE! You might as well ask why public libraries aren't making money.
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That's a very interesting comment. How exactly would it be illegal?
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I believe it's called "dumping", and various countries have laws against products that are sold that much below cost. Especially important if you want to sell any overseas. Japanese RAM companies got in big trouble over this in the late 80's, which caused them to raise prices, which killed OS/2 1.x (and probably 2.x, for that matter)
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure how anyone ever expected Hotmail to make money.. it's a FREE SERVICE! You might as well ask why public libraries aren't making money. |
Don't ask me. Ask Steve Ballmer and "Bill"...
J
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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? I said that MS was moved first into the web by releasing NT and IIS. Did they have a strategy/product before NT/IIS? They might have but I never heard of one...
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NT was released first. IIS didn't exist at all until much later. I believe IIS started at around the same time as NT 4 and IE 3/4, but I'd have to look it up, and I can't be arsed.
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For 3/4 of all web sites, 10 users simultaneously is more than enough.
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Er, we're not talking about My Pet Cat's Own Webpage here, I mean, *OSY* gets more than 10 connections quite often, not to mention every corporate Intranet in every company with >100 employees.
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If you're talking enterprise, I'd acquiese that the situation would be different but, again, where is the evidence that MS is concentrated in *large* hosting venues? IOW, large sites with massive traffic?
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I just so happen to have the evidence on OSY itself!
https://pegasus3d.com/server_share.html
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Yeah, 30%-30% in the last couple of years is *kick ass*.
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No, 0-30% against a FREE PRODUCT is kickass.
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Netscape wasn't "always free".
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YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense?
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Stop sippin the crazy juice. Netscape used to be saleware, not freeware. They had to move to a freeware model because MS was plugging it in every copy of their OS...
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WRONG.
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It had nothing to do with "better/worse" because, in the end, there were problems with both browsers. Most brain dead Joe Schmoes simply used the browser that was included on the machine for free and, much like our court system has discovered, MS first forced Netscape to stop charging and then coerced OEMs into not carrying Netscape.
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WRONG.
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THAT killed Netscape, not the utter shite IE 3/4, which didn't start to show some nads until version 4.5...
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AFAIK there *was* no version 4.5 outside the Mac version. Nobody cares about the Mac version. We're talking Windows.
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The Xbox is currently a financial failure.
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WRONG. Financial losses != Product failure.
Sony lost BILLIONS on the PS2, in development, marketing, and selling below cost.
Yet the product is a SUCCESS.
I thought you went to business school?
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If I told you that Apple lost a signifcant amount of money with OS X and that it wasn't adopted well at all, you'd call that a failure. MS may turn this momentary failure into a success but that doesn't change the fact that they're losing substantial amounts of money and that the Xbox is a failure....*now*.
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No, it isn't.
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Sony's making a killing with the PS2, so I have no clue where you keep getting these affirmations of profitability for MS and fiscal trouble for others...
Here, Sony themselves admit existing PS2 profitability:
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On SOFTWARE!!!! NOT THE HARDWARE!! Hello????
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So, again, we could go in circles but MS isn't doing well at all with the Xbox, despite beliefs on this board, that Gates is the second coming...
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Nobody thinks that. This isn't the Battlefront, and we don't need silly posturing and ad-homs.
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MS may need to make their cash in games but they're doing pretty poorly in that respect(which is why, again, I recommend that they make their console PC game-compatible)...
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PS2 launched with a dismal array of crap games (and not many of them) and in the first year in Japan, it was used mainly as a DVD player. Software sales were HORRIBLE.
Things change.
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First of all, money doesn't do Microsoft any good unless they USE it.
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Which is why they are doing the XBox.
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That's why I get miffed at MS and Apple when I hear that they have billions in the bank. Billions in the bank as a cushion is a great idea, as long as most of the cash is being used to evolve and grow the business.
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They are spending it as fast as they can!
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What good is 40 bill to MS if someone comes along and swipes their OS leadership?
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And this someone would be... who exactly?
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No good. I personally think they're saving for SOMETHING. What? I don't know.
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Like... the XBox?
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Magus
Tolkien Loremaster
Vice Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2001
Posts: 9521
Location: On the Stairway to Heaven.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| 2. IIS is not a "free product" because it requires Win2k Server to support more than 10 simultaneous connections. It's free in much the same way as the first hit of crack is free. |
If you want to run a server, run a server class OS.
_________________
<Paolo|Work> anything that has to do with Java is by definition stupid
1 The Network is my domain, I shall not want; 2 though it makes me wait upon collision, it leads me to the Internet; 3 it restores my connection. It leads me in paths of hypertext transfer for google's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of power failures, I fear no data corruption; for backups art with me; thy UPS and thy status light, they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a firewall before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my CD-R with BurnProof, my buffer never underflows. 6 Surely good deals and pr0n shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Datacenter for ever.
-HitScan
Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone
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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Netscape wasn't "always free".
YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense? |
No it wasn't.
If you decided you were too cool to pay for it, that's one thing but Netscape, even at it's early beginnings had a shareware cost attached(which was "optional" but intended). The cost even became "official" when they began to sell the application via computer/office outlets...
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Stop sippin the crazy juice. Netscape used to be saleware, not freeware. They had to move to a freeware model because MS was plugging it in every copy of their OS...
WRONG. |
Actually, I'm right.
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It had nothing to do with "better/worse" because, in the end, there were problems with both browsers. Most brain dead Joe Schmoes simply used the browser that was included on the machine for free and, much like our court system has discovered, MS first forced Netscape to stop charging and then coerced OEMs into not carrying Netscape.
WRONG. |
Oh please.
IE 4 was crap. Pure and simple. If it was better than NS 4, it was unnoticable. The only reason NS disappeared was because MS wanted them to. Period.
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The Xbox is currently a financial failure.
WRONG. Financial losses != Product failure.
Sony lost BILLIONS on the PS2, in development, marketing, and selling below cost.
Yet the product is a SUCCESS.
I thought you went to business school? |
I did, which is why I'm being so patient with you.
Granted, the crack about my business knowledge was interesting to note. I was wondering how quick you'd start to rip into my credentials. My fault for mentioning them.
Could be worse. I could affirm that advertising and Marketing are one and the same. Or affirm that Marketing is an "afterthought".
What's next? Is Accounting == Finance?
But I digress,
The fact of the matter is that MS Xbox doesn't place in the top 30 game sellers, even ONCE, in Japan. Doesn't do so in Europe and barely does a tepid job in the U.S.
Moreover, the sales have been analyzed by ML, whom indicated that MS would need several years to come close to recouping sunk costs and, let's face it, MS is losing butt-loads of money right now. They intended to lose millions but were quoted as saying "below expectations". So what? Billions a quarter?
The Xbox is a failure now. Tomorrow it might turn itself around but in the interest of quantifying the fiscal performance of the console, I'm using a "time stamp" as a deadline and, with such constraints in mind, MS has likely lost billions in the Xbox platform and has not recovered anywhere near an acceptable amount.
You want to call that a smash success...go for it.
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If I told you that Apple lost a signifcant amount of money with OS X and that it wasn't adopted well at all, you'd call that a failure. MS may turn this momentary failure into a success but that doesn't change the fact that they're losing substantial amounts of money and that the Xbox is a failure....*now*.
No, it isn't. |
Yes, the Xbox is a failure now.
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Quote:
Sony's making a killing with the PS2, so I have no clue where you keep getting these affirmations of profitability for MS and fiscal trouble for others...
Here, Sony themselves admit existing PS2 profitability:
On SOFTWARE!!!! NOT THE HARDWARE!! Hello???? |
Exactly. They indicate profitability on the very same thing you indicate MS can't make profitability on: the sale of the console alone.
Neither of us is privvy to the specifics of their business model but I'd hazard to wager that MS isn't *that* much different than Sony...
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So, again, we could go in circles but MS isn't doing well at all with the Xbox, despite beliefs on this board, that Gates is the second coming...
Nobody thinks that. This isn't the Battlefront, and we don't need silly posturing and ad-homs. |
??
"I thought you were a business student."
Tell you what. Lead by example.
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MS may need to make their cash in games but they're doing pretty poorly in that respect(which is why, again, I recommend that they make their console PC game-compatible)...
PS2 launched with a dismal array of crap games (and not many of them) and in the first year in Japan, it was used mainly as a DVD player. Software sales were HORRIBLE.
Things change. |
Things do, indeed, change. MS' deathgrip on the industry will be one of those changes.
Moreover, PS2 had a different industry to compete in. Nintendo was weakened by Sega and Sega itself was having financial issues(which ultimately lead the company to the brink of oblivion). MS, otoh, is dealing with an experienced, profitable, bloodthirsty veteran(Sony) that was ready for them. Moreover, MS has the added difficulty of Nintendo, who seems to be relegating itself to #2 console maker and appears to be becoming *quite* comfy in that spot.
Apples and Subarus.
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First of all, money doesn't do Microsoft any good unless they USE it.
Which is why they are doing the XBox. |
And that could be a good investment. Except they've selected marketing tactics that are causing them to cannibalize each other. MS computer games vs. MS console games. I'm not buying both. Most geeks won't.
Providing a billable service or hardware addon that could allow the Xbox to play said games would provide the console with an enormous library of quality software. As opposed to their complete and total dearth of decent games.
What do they have? Project Gotham? Halo? What else? A small handful of others?
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That's why I get miffed at MS and Apple when I hear that they have billions in the bank. Billions in the bank as a cushion is a great idea, as long as most of the cash is being used to evolve and grow the business.
They are spending it as fast as they can! |
Apple's not spending it on a damn thing. Stupid.
MS isn't spending as fast as they could.
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What good is 40 bill to MS if someone comes along and swipes their OS leadership?
and this someone would be... who exactly? |
Whomever eventually takes it from them. Are we going to start this again?
On a side-note. I've overheard my students complaining. Apparently those that own an Xbox seem to have the same experience. Infrequent but consistent "freezes" in their gaming. Something, PS2 owners seem to disavow on their platforms...
I'm hoping that the kernel used in the Xbox is an NT based one but if it was, the freezes(made by many unrelated pupils) doesn't bode well.
Keep in mind these kids aren't anti-MS, they're anti-sucky game experience...
J
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Lovin' Mely.
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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On a side-note. I've overheard my students complaining. Apparently those that own an Xbox seem to have the same experience. Infrequent but consistent "freezes" in their gaming. Something, PS2 owners seem to disavow on their platforms...
I'm hoping that the kernel used in the Xbox is an NT based one but if it was, the freezes(made by many unrelated pupils) doesn't bode well.
Keep in mind these kids aren't anti-MS, they're anti-sucky game experience...
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I've had my PS2 freeze on numerous occasions, and stutter during movie playback-- even freeze while playing a DVD! Shit happens, components overheat, dust gets on the DVD, life moves on. Sheesh, did you ever use an original PlayStation? Over time the video playback would get worse and worse-- Sony's official fix was to ask owners to turn the unit on its side! Whee!! We had boxes full of dead PSXes at EA..
Anyway, the XBOX is based on a stripped down Win2k kernel, duh. The more important thing in your story is the fact that your kids have XBoxes AT ALL. Strange for a "failed" console.
All I can say is: people made fun of Windows 1.0 and IE 1.0 and called them failures and look what happened.
Aha.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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And IE 4 was not crap. It won every comparison ever made against NS 4. The reason Netscape died was because they sucked. They should have been like Quicken, and kept improving their product (god knows MS Money got bundled with everything under the sun) Quicken still rules the roost TODAY! That's because it doesn't SUCK, like NETSCAPE did (and does)
Instead, they made their core product WORSE, then wasted all their time whining to the government and paying lawyers instead of programmers, then sold out to AOL, that bastion of reliability and technical superiority.
Well, they deserved death. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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PaoloM
The King Of Crap
Captain
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 1706
Location: Up, up, up... there.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Madan wrote: |
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Quote:
Netscape wasn't "always free".
YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense? |
No it wasn't.
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Yes it was.
Please Madan, I like you. Don't play the stupid.
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longmarch
Estate Bottled
Captain
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2430
Location: 921-2
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much? |
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PaoloM
The King Of Crap
Captain
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 1706
Location: Up, up, up... there.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| longmarch wrote: |
| Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much? |
You're righ, I'm sorry. But the difference is that on the BF my last line would have been sneered, while here it was sincere. I really like Madan, and I hate seeing people I like saying incorrect things because they may run across somebody else who doesn't like them. And use those things against them.
It happened several times to friends of mine, and I didn't like it at all.
Madan: sorry if I was rude.
longmarch: it's again, not agian, ye moron 
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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I don't like it when we fall into BF-style arguments. But sometimes it can't be helped.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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longmarch
Estate Bottled
Captain
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2430
Location: 921-2
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| PaoloM wrote: |
| longmarch: it's again, not agian, ye moron |
I take exception to that: I'm a maroon, thankyeverymuch.
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Mord
Console Cowboy
Vice Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2002
Posts: 8022
Location: Where the rubber meets the road.
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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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nd IE 4 was not crap. It won every comparison ever made against NS 4 |
No it didn't. YOU may think it's better but IE 4 was total shite.
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| The reason Netscape died was because they sucked. They should have been like Quicken, and kept improving their product (god knows MS Money got bundled with everything under the sun) Quicken still rules the roost TODAY! That's because it doesn't SUCK, like NETSCAPE did (and does) |
The reason Netscape died is because MS gave the equivalent product away for free, forcing Netscape to seek new forms of revenue, at the height of Nestcape market dominance. Morevoer, MS continued to pull shady shit by colluding with vulnerable OEMs and forcing them to exclude Netscape to IE's benefit. Not to mention that a lot of NS code simply stunk because MS has this annoying little habit of hiding their code pitfalls so that copetitors can't run on their operating system as well as their own product.
That's why NS died. Not some story about IE 4 being better. At that time, the two browsers were at parity.
They BOTH sucked.
| Quote: |
Madan wrote:Quote:
Quote:
Netscape wasn't "always free".
YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense?
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
Please Madan, I like you. Don't play the stupid. |
Oh please. I bought a copy of NS at Office Depot for 30 bucks. I still have the licensing papers shoved away somewhere.
Don't come to me with that mistaken garbage.
I'm surprised you'd even post considering that your last four argumentative suppositions were echos of comments you failed to read in my prior posts...
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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:44 pm Post subject:
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Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much? Back to top
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I'm simply stating facts. People don't like to hear ill about their preferred platform. MS was a dirty dealer against NS. Everyone can see that except those that are pro-MS. In fact, most polls show that people believe that MS engaged in illegal dealings.
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Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 307
Location: How do I change this?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:19 pm Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
longmarch wrote:
Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much?
You're righ, I'm sorry. But the difference is that on the BF my last line would have been sneered, while here it was sincere. I really like Madan, and I hate seeing people I like saying incorrect things because they may run across somebody else who doesn't like them. And use those things against them.
It happened several times to friends of mine, and I didn't like it at all.
Madan: sorry if I was rude.
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Incorrect is a matter of opinion, unless you're talking about Netscape always being free, which it wasn't. Because otherwise, copies wouldn't be going at babbages for quarter hundred...
You are all focusing on AFTER IE popped up. That's when NS no longer had the luxury to charge for their product. There've been business texts analyzing NS failed attempt to establish a new profitability paradigm.
J
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC, you could buy Internet Explorer at Babbages for $30 as well, that didn't change its free status one bit.
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No it didn't. YOU may think it's better but IE 4 was total shite.
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Every independant comparison at the time either said they were equal or IE4 was way ahead. I know. I read them.
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The reason Netscape died is because MS gave the equivalent product away for free,
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Which Netscape ALSO DID FROM DAY ONE.
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forcing Netscape to seek new forms of revenue,
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Netscape NEVER depended on sales of its free browser to sustain revenue. Almost all of their money came from sales of their server software (which was also shite, but IIS and I think even Apache didn't exist yet) and advertising on their netscape.com portal, back in the days when you could make some serious money on advertising on the net.
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at the height of Nestcape market dominance.
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Which Netscape ACHIEVED by GIVING AWAY THEIR BROWSER!
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Morevoer, MS continued to pull shady shit by colluding with vulnerable OEMs and forcing them to exclude Netscape to IE's benefit.
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And most of them told Microsoft to fuck off, they'd bundle what they like. I got Netscape with my iStar package, for example.
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Not to mention that a lot of NS code simply stunk because MS has this annoying little habit of hiding their code pitfalls so that copetitors can't run on their operating system as well as their own product.
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OH. MY. GOD.
Are you seriously dragging out the "Sekrit API's" again?
Netscape code stunk because Netscape programmers SUCKED.
PERIOD!
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That's why NS died. Not some story about IE 4 being better. At that time, the two browsers were at parity.
They BOTH sucked.
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No, only Netscape 4 sucked.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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PaoloM
The King Of Crap
Captain
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 1706
Location: Up, up, up... there.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Madan wrote: |
Madan wrote:Quote:
Quote:
Netscape wasn't "always free".
YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense?
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
Please Madan, I like you. Don't play the stupid.
Oh please. I bought a copy of NS at Office Depot for 30 bucks. I still have the licensing papers shoved away somewhere.
Don't come to me with that mistaken garbage. |
So YOU are more authoritative than Netscape's press release? Amazing.
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| I'm surprised you'd even post considering that your last four argumentative suppositions were echos of comments you failed to read in my prior posts... |
Fuck off.
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Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 307
Location: How do I change this?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:19 pm Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
longmarch wrote:
Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much?
You're righ, I'm sorry. But the difference is that on the BF my last line would have been sneered, while here it was sincere. I really like Madan, and I hate seeing people I like saying incorrect things because they may run across somebody else who doesn't like them. And use those things against them.
It happened several times to friends of mine, and I didn't like it at all.
Madan: sorry if I was rude.
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Incorrect is a matter of opinion, unless you're talking about Netscape always being free, which it wasn't. Because otherwise, copies wouldn't be going at babbages for quarter hundred...
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Reading is not your forte, eh?
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You are all focusing on AFTER IE popped up. That's when NS no longer had the luxury to charge for their product. There've been business texts analyzing NS failed attempt to establish a new profitability paradigm.
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Read the date of the press release (October 13, 1994). I happen to have at home the t-shirt from the release of IE3, dated August 16, 1996. IE4 of course came later than IE3. By these two simple facts, we could infer that IE4 came out after the issue of that press release, where Netscape proudly announces that their browser is free.
| Quote: |
| Customers who download the software do so for personal use only. Commercial users can purchase supported, licensed copies of Netscape directly from Netscape Communications. |
And, on this note, FUCK YOU Madan. If you want to discuss, let's do it on the same intellectual level, using facts and not populist propaganda.
Don't expect any kind of help from me anytime soon.
Jeremy et al: sorry for the BFisms, this ends here.
_________________
This is not a signature
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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We have to stay away from the BF-style antagonism.
Don't ask me how.
But we have to.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Incidentally, ONE SIMPLE WORD can disprove the assertion that Netscape sucked because of some evil machinations of Microsoft ensuring that it wouldn't run as well as IE on Windows.
One word.
Opera.
QED.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Internet Explorer really behaved poorly and was as buggy as all shit, IE wasn't good until IE5.5 ... I should know, I used to code to it and NN4.x.
Boy, that really sucked ... I remember the twists and turns I had to do to get a page to render the same in IE4 and NN4 .. gah, the Nightmares! Don't bring back the Nightmares!
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux! |
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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Madan wrote:
Madan wrote:Quote:
Quote:
Netscape wasn't "always free".
YES. IT. WAS.
My god, we have an article on the front page of OSY proving this, and you still trot out this nonsense?
No it wasn't.
Yes it was.
Please Madan, I like you. Don't play the stupid.
Oh please. I bought a copy of NS at Office Depot for 30 bucks. I still have the licensing papers shoved away somewhere.
Don't come to me with that mistaken garbage.
So YOU are more authoritative than Netscape's press release? Amazing.
Quote:
I'm surprised you'd even post considering that your last four argumentative suppositions were echos of comments you failed to read in my prior posts...
Fuck off. |
So what I said *wasn't* true? Come on. You didn't read the thread and you basically repeat my comments and you get pissed when I call you on it?
You've GOT to be kidding me.
| Quote: |
Quote:
Quote:
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 307
Location: How do I change this?
Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:19 pm Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
longmarch wrote:
Good to see everyone's BF skills are intact. Remind me agian why you all hate the BF so much?
You're righ, I'm sorry. But the difference is that on the BF my last line would have been sneered, while here it was sincere. I really like Madan, and I hate seeing people I like saying incorrect things because they may run across somebody else who doesn't like them. And use those things against them.
It happened several times to friends of mine, and I didn't like it at all.
Madan: sorry if I was rude.
Incorrect is a matter of opinion, unless you're talking about Netscape always being free, which it wasn't. Because otherwise, copies wouldn't be going at babbages for quarter hundred...
Reading is not your forte, eh? |
| Quote: |
Quote:
You are all focusing on AFTER IE popped up. That's when NS no longer had the luxury to charge for their product. There've been business texts analyzing NS failed attempt to establish a new profitability paradigm.
Read the date of the press release (October 13, 1994). I happen to have at home the t-shirt from the release of IE3, dated August 16, 1996. IE4 of course came later than IE3. By these two simple facts, we could infer that IE4 came out after the issue of that press release, where Netscape proudly announces that their browser is free. |
I don't infer anything. Inference has a nasty habit of making one look like an ass. Kinda what you look like now...
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~tucci/netscape/products.htm
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Netscape In-Depth Case Study
The first commercial version of the Navigator was released in December, 1994 (priced at $39), for the first time generating a revenue stream for the firm. This quickly became the dominant Internet browser, and estimates of its market share have ranged between 70 and 80%.
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First commercial because in the history section, you'll notice that the pre-comm versions were simply not "polished" enough for sale...
AND
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Andreessen insisted that in order to keep its lead over the competition, a new Navigator version should be released in three months and every three months thereafter. ''We compromised on six months,'' says Vice-President Richard M. Schell--still an unheard-of pace in an industry used to two-year product cycles.
By March, 1995, Netscape released the "beta" version of an improved Navigator, version 1.1. This version included advanced layout capabilities, such as tables, together with dynamic document updating for changing information and the Netscape Client Application Programming Interface (which allowed third-party applications to control remotely the Netscape Navigator). By May, 1995, version 1.1N was released, available on the Internet for free downloading for educational purposes and for free evaluation by individuals and commercial organizations. The commercial price remained $39.
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So basically, the price was ONLY free for the app(second version, not first or beta) *if* it was serving as an evaluation or if you were in school.
So I can assume you trampled over their license?
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Quote:
And, on this note, FUCK YOU Madan. If you want to discuss, let's do it on the same intellectual level, using facts and not populist propaganda. |
I couldn't agree more. I posted facts, and you're responding with "Fuck You". I post links about Xbox sales and I get: "Reading isn't your forte..." or "I thought you were a business student..." Etc.
... I thought I left Ars.
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Don't expect any kind of help from me anytime soon. |
Great, no worries. I mean, if it comes with the price tag of having to tell you you're right, when you're wrong, your help ain't worth it.
I will say this. I haven't cursed anyone out yet. Twenty bucks says my rep as "excitable" still sticks.
THAT's "propaganda".
Cheers.
J.
_________________
Lovin' Mely.
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
Incidentally, ONE SIMPLE WORD can disprove the assertion that Netscape sucked because of some evil machinations of Microsoft ensuring that it wouldn't run as well as IE on Windows.
One word.
Opera.
QED. |
Sekrit API's .. heh heh .. *titter*
It was that MS can bundle any of it's applications with Windows is what killed NN .. that and NN not being improved.
FACT: The only companies that survive vs Microsoft are those that provide equal or better software at an equal or lower price. Not too many companies can do that.
Linux, for example, provides comperable software to some Windows features at a price lower than Windows (not talking TCO here, let's not go there) and is thus making inroads.
Quicken, as another example, adds tons of features every year and is really inexpensive. MS Money is actually the underdog despite being bundled with all kinds of PCs. It helps that MS has a court order not to buy Intuit. 
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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So I can assume you trampled over their license?
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Fuck, the license was deliberately worded so that everyone could download a "trial" copy and use it as long as they liked. I don't know ANYONE who paid for Navigator. If you did, you were stupid, or you got a paid (and probably more full-featured) version bundled with an ISP account, like I did.
Netscape NEVER, EVER expected to make money on the browser. The whole point of the company was to give the browser AWAY, thus gaining dominant market share, and leveraging that share for their server software and for the Netcenter portal.
EVERYBODY knows this.
Sheesh, man, just let it go, we don't keep score at OSY, and no, I don't think you've reacted in an "exciteable" manner, instead I think that you're continuing to support an argument that is quite definitely and quite provably, wrong, and that we do care about at OSY, we definitely care very much about the TRUTH, not propaganda.
It has nothing to do with loving Microsoft or hating Microsoft. I lean towards the latter anyway. But the truth is the truth.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Madan
Gone.
Commodore
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 3688
Location: Miami
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Fuck, the license was deliberately worded so that everyone could download a "trial" copy and use it as long as they liked. I don't know ANYONE who paid for Navigator. If you did, you were stupid, or you got a paid (and probably more full-featured) version bundled with an ISP account, like I did. |
I don't think so. Where's the license? SHOW THE LICENSE. Show the inference that "it's ok to use an evaluation copy forever". You seem to be pulling copious amounts of information out of who knows where, compared the almost fucking endless amount of links I post.
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Netscape NEVER, EVER expected to make money on the browser. |
? Are you serious? You can't be serious. You can't have made a stupid comment like that. Software companies expect to make MONEY from their wares. It's only after NS had no ware to sell(browser paradigm began to appear for free..NOT evaluation), that they had to adopt a portal business model.
| Quote: |
| The whole point of the company was to give the browser AWAY, thus gaining dominant market share, and leveraging that share for their server software and for the Netcenter portal. |
This was AFTER MS IE was released. When the business model for Netscape was altered to "freeware" status, Netscape decieded to become a portal company. Those that know little about this mid-gear change NS made, are obviously ignorant about business issues.
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Sheesh, man, just let it go, we don't keep score at OSY, and no, I don't think you've reacted in an "exciteable" manner, instead I think that you're continuing to support an argument that is quite definitely and quite provably, wrong, |
I've posted links conducted by the NSU biz dept that definitively show that:
NS charged for their first browser iteration(NOT evaluation equipped)
AND that
NS charged for their second browser iteration(with evaluation equipped)...
You've made candy suppositions like:
"A business never expected to make money off of their code..."
"NS was hoping you'd use their evaluation copy forever..."
Etc.
Without any links. Any proof. And, let's face it, any sense.
| Quote: |
| and that we do care about at OSY, we definitely care very much about the TRUTH, not propaganda. |
No you don't. If you did, you'd read the ten page NS case study I posted as a link. You, quite frankly, don't WANT to know what really happened to NS because you think your computer background and a middling interest in the history of a couple of companies, like MS(not to mention interest) automatically makes you an expert.
Experts know where to find their evidence. Where's YOUR evidence?
J.
_________________
Lovin' Mely.
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Madan, this whole thing has been rehashed SO many times at ars, on comp.sys.mac.advocacy, everywhere.
Netscape NEVER EXPECTED TO MAKE MONEY ON THE BROWSER.
Don't you remember the .com days? Give the client away, make money on the server/on the service/on whatever. If you charge for the client, people won't use it, so you can't leverage shit.
Winamp.
RealPlayer.
Quicktime.
WMP.
Every damn P2P service in the world.
AOL IM.
The list goes on and on.
Why are all these programs free? Because their authors are feeling generous and want to Help Humanity With Free Software?
Bullshit. They want marketshare, so they can leverage their server/content creation tools/advertising. How many media players have you paid for lately?
Madan, I'm sorry, but you're just WRONG about this. End of story.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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