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PaoloM
The King Of Crap
Captain
Joined: 26 Feb 2001
Posts: 1706
Location: Up, up, up... there.
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 Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 12:43 pm Post subject: Any BF proxies? |
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Just to make sure history doesn't get rewritten daily, here's Netscape's first press release.
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| The new Internet navigator, developed by the six-month-old Silicon Valley company led by Silicon Graphics founder Jim Clark and NCSA Mosaic creator Marc Andreessen, is available immediately for free downloading by individual, academic and research users. |
and
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| Customers who download the software do so for personal use only. Commercial users can purchase supported, licensed copies of Netscape directly from Netscape Communications. |
Somebody posts this to the BF and let's have this stupid squabble end once and for all.
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Somebody posts this to the BF and let's have this stupid squabble end once and for all.
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The problem is, people do post stuff like this to the Battlefront. All the time. Then complete morons ignore it and start bleating like the sheep they are: "Waaa!! Microsoft gave away IE to cripple Netscape!! Waaa!"
The fact that you can easily disprove these people's assumptions doesn't seem to matter to them. They have their religious ABM beliefs, and they refuse to concede them. Ever. The only exception was qomputek conceding the "Sekrit API" thread a while back, and look what happened! A few weeks later, some idiot posts about "Sekrit APIs" again and the whole discussion gets rehashed again! 
I think the sensible thing to do is ignore the Battlefront entirely as being completely inconsequential, and focus on taking these facts (like the one you posted, Paolo) and putting them together on a single website, like, say, OSY, where you can refer to them for all eternity.
I've already started with the Google marketshare page and the Apple marketshare page. I plan to do a page on installed base later on, and the history of IE versus Netscape can be another one.
Only facts will be allowed on these pages. DKE-style rants will be verboten.
What do you think, sirs?
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
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Somebody posts this to the BF and let's have this stupid squabble end once and for all.
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The problem is, people do post stuff like this to the Battlefront. All the time. Then complete morons ignore it and start bleating like the sheep they are: "Waaa!! Microsoft gave away IE to cripple Netscape!! Waaa!"
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The problem is, there was a incontrovertable (??) proof that IE was being released for free in order to bury Netscape on the Windows platform. If Netscape had been running their show well this wouldn't have mattered (ie Opera is still alive and selling their browser), but they didn't and died.
Oh well.
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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Magus
Tolkien Loremaster
Vice Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2001
Posts: 9521
Location: On the Stairway to Heaven.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Only facts will be allowed on these pages. DKE-style rants will be verboten. What do you think, sirs? |
A-fuckin'-men.
_________________
<Paolo|Work> anything that has to do with Java is by definition stupid
1 The Network is my domain, I shall not want; 2 though it makes me wait upon collision, it leads me to the Internet; 3 it restores my connection. It leads me in paths of hypertext transfer for google's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of power failures, I fear no data corruption; for backups art with me; thy UPS and thy status light, they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a firewall before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my CD-R with BurnProof, my buffer never underflows. 6 Surely good deals and pr0n shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Datacenter for ever.
-HitScan
Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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The problem is, there was a incontrovertable (??) proof that IE was being released for free in order to bury Netscape on the Windows platform
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But that proof is kind of thrown out the window when you realize that Netscape was ALSO free on the Windows platform.. from DAY 1!
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Harbinger
Dread Pirate
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Feb 2001
Posts: 5786
Location: Behind the keyboard, duh...
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
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The problem is, there was a incontrovertable (??) proof that IE was being released for free in order to bury Netscape on the Windows platform
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But that proof is kind of thrown out the window when you realize that Netscape was ALSO free on the Windows platform.. from DAY 1!
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And IIRC, NN was available before IE was available anyway. And if this truly is the case, I can't see how anyone can logically argue the "IE was free so that evil M$ can bury the young upstart Netscape" card.
But then there's Andreesson's comments about making NN the 'vehicle' to launch all programs and make Windows nothing but a boot loader (or whatever the exact verbage was).
_________________
Gaah. I don’t tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with people getting together and making their own “insightful” comment on any random topic, whether they know anything about it or not. -- Linus Torvalds, 20 Aug 2005
I heard that even small amounts of smam are highly unstable. Like anti-matter, only with polka dots. -- Mord
I don't make up rumors, I just falsify them. -- HitScan
Pentium-M eats G4 alive so quickly that the G4 is still breathing when the P-M shits it out. End of story. -- Hat Monster
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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His exact words were "reduce Windows to a poorly-debugged set of device drivers".
I just read in Wired that his latest venture, LoudCloud, just got bought out by some nameless company for a fraction of its original valuation.
All I can say is: HA HA!
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Harbinger wrote: |
| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Quote: |
The problem is, there was a incontrovertable (??) proof that IE was being released for free in order to bury Netscape on the Windows platform
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But that proof is kind of thrown out the window when you realize that Netscape was ALSO free on the Windows platform.. from DAY 1!
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And IIRC, NN was available before IE was available anyway. And if this truly is the case, I can't see how anyone can logically argue the "IE was free so that evil M$ can bury the young upstart Netscape" card...
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Tell that to Bill Gates and the other MS exec's whom had that as a strategy! The memos and emails were all from them. *shrug*
Netscape was free to students and the general public but not to businesses, I believe. They also made a lot of money selling Netscape servers. Netscape should have spent their time re-writing their browser (ie Mozilla) instead of bug-patching 4.x ... they might still be around as an individual company instead of an AOL / Time Warner / Fruit of the Loom / Whomever-we-just-bought-this-week subsidiary.
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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Harbinger
Dread Pirate
Rear Admiral
Joined: 27 Feb 2001
Posts: 5786
Location: Behind the keyboard, duh...
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Netscape was free to students and the general public but not to businesses, I believe. |
I believe that's pretty much what Paolo's post confirms.
| Quote: |
| They also made a lot of money selling Netscape servers. Netscape should have spent their time re-writing their browser (ie Mozilla) instead of bug-patching 4.x ... they might still be around as an individual company instead of an AOL / Time Warner / Fruit of the Loom / Whomever-we-just-bought-this-week subsidiary. |
I fully agree with that statement. But I also believe that helps refute the "MS beat NS by giving away its browser for free" argument. IMO the main reason (and I'm confident that there were numerous causes) NS lost the 'browser war' to MS is that IE got much, much better while NN not only stagnated but got much, much worse. That there are those who argue otherwise is what makes me scratch my head.
_________________
Gaah. I don’t tend to bother about slashdot, because quite frankly, the whole _point_ of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with people getting together and making their own “insightful” comment on any random topic, whether they know anything about it or not. -- Linus Torvalds, 20 Aug 2005
I heard that even small amounts of smam are highly unstable. Like anti-matter, only with polka dots. -- Mord
I don't make up rumors, I just falsify them. -- HitScan
Pentium-M eats G4 alive so quickly that the G4 is still breathing when the P-M shits it out. End of story. -- Hat Monster
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 9:10 am Post subject: |
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The only possible argument one could ever have is that Microsoft gave away IIS to beat Netscape's server software... but the problem there is that IIS has always had a 10-connection limit on Win2k Pro (and NT 4 Workstation) whereas Netscape's software could be run on both OSes without such limits. Given the price of Microsoft's server operating systems, you cannot honestly say that IIS was "given away".
But then it's pointless arguing with the ABM people. Might as well try to discuss atheism with a Jehovah's Witness...
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
... But then it's pointless arguing with the ABM people... |
Yeah, that's me ... ^10
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7834
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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No, I wasn't referring to you, FDD, sorry.
I was talking more along the likes of eMA, The_Hitman, etc.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
No, I wasn't referring to you, FDD, sorry.
I was talking more along the likes of eMA, The_Hitman, etc. |
Having them being Unix advocates is like bringing a spork to a knife fight ... it's humiliating. 
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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longmarch
Estate Bottled
Captain
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 2430
Location: 921-2
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Having them being Unix advocates is like bringing a spork to a knife fight ... it's humiliating. |
It's funny how the folk who howl the loudest about Windows seem to possess the worst arguments against it. Most of the rest of us don't need arguments against Windows. We have valid reasons for chosing the tools that get our work done, so we just shrug and get back to using what we want. (Which for me is mostly UNIX, but is still sometimes Windows.)
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| longmarch wrote: |
| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Having them being Unix advocates is like bringing a spork to a knife fight ... it's humiliating. |
It's funny how the folk who howl the loudest about Windows seem to possess the worst arguments against it. Most of the rest of us don't need arguments against Windows. We have valid reasons for chosing the tools that get our work done, so we just shrug and get back to using what we want. (Which for me is mostly UNIX, but is still sometimes Windows.)
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Indeed.
FD
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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