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Imitation Gruel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11383819/

I don't have a response to that. I really don't.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Disturbing but still not as disturbing as naked curling.

But WTF is wrong with those people, the guy just made some cartoons, not even good ones. This is totally out of proportion.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me waits for the Muslim apologists to try to excuse all this

We hear over and over how "peaceful" Islam is s'posed to be, and yet we're seeing massive riots and Islamic religious leaders offering bounties. Yeah, real peaceful.

If the rioters and those calling for assassinations are the exception instead of the rule, why are they not denounced by the peaceful Muslims? Why is there no condemnation?

I'm fully aware that the cartoons in question are considered offensive, even blasphemous, but that in no way excuses the behavior we're seeing.
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Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I think the whole thing is completely out of proportion, and I really think that the Islamic leaders have lost control (or rather don't want to control), and while I think the Islamic community will collapse* in on itself from this ridiculous intolerance to the world around themselves, I still think what we're seeing is from three things:
1) Fundamentalist Islamic leaders that really want to stir anti-western** sentiment feelings up.
2) Islamic people who don't think for themselves and join in these riots, but also, that sorry age old beta alpha male trait that is part of all men.
3) The media just focusing on the above two and just really perpetuating the problem even more by indirectly causing the western world to slowly develop anti-islamic sentiment.



*The dark ages was about hard core intolerant christianity that didn't allow any images of god or jesus christ in churches, and I believe any where else in the christian kingdoms. Also, there were the inquisition where the leaders (ignored, and just didn't have any control) allowed for torture of any person that was found to be non-christian. That part of the christian world did collapse on it self. And so will this intolerant part of the islamic world. And I think it will get worse before it gets better.
**The oddest thing that I've ever heard from pretty much the entire western ideological world is this idea that Christianity and Islam is this divided separate theology. Lord, I wish people were less ignorant and maybe, perhaps, we'd see a more peaceful world. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are linked, are ALL considered western religions, and more importantly, Islamic (the youngest of the three) actually acknowledges Jesus Christ as one of it's messiahs, but not the last and final messiah. How weird is that? Islamic idiots think they're fighting against a christian world they don't realize their own religion actually acknowledges as part of their creed. Huh? Confused
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, also, I'm really a hard core free speech bastard. So this reaction from the Islamic world really pisses me off.

If Islamic people that LIVE in these places where there is free speech, and then feel offended, then either just ignore it, or leave for a country or city where the political climate suits you better.
Where the country is ruled by Islamic theology, they really should not be involved in this in anyway. Lodge a formal protest, but beyond that, what exists beyond your borders is not yours to control nor to dictate. So shut the fuck up and go back to your lives and don't leave your country.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AYB is actually glad the cartoons were published. It shows these people for the ridiculous figures they are. It should also illustrate that *they* are the real problem. They are the one that no one has use for.

Jihading over a couple cartoons?

Lame.
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Man, I need to get out more. You know smam is getting to you when you go to a canadian restaurant and start wondering about moose cock. -OscarWilde Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllYorBaseRBelong2Us wrote:
AYB is actually glad the cartoons were published. It shows these people for the ridiculous figures they are. It should also illustrate that *they* are the real problem. They are the one that no one has use for.

Jihading over a couple cartoons?

Lame.


At the same time, I think it's really important for ourselves outside of the Islamic world not to let the idiots make us start using language like 'these people'. We become just as intolerant over time then.
So I think we have to make a real effort in our use of language to express clearly what we protest against. I vocally protest against the fundamentalist Islamic community that has both lost control and become too intolerant against anything that isn't Islamic. I do have muslim friends who think the whole situation is ridiculous and they aren't any happier with what the idiots in the Islamic nations are doing, and worse they can't do anything themselves to stop it.
So I do feel it necessary that in order to be civil, we need to be able to restrain ourselves when there is a need to be. I've seen the cartoons and I'm completely at a loss why it's even causing any reaction to begin with; but after all the violent protests that is happening, there is a point in our own sanity and responsibility to say we should stop printing these images till there is peace. Otherwise, we just abuse freedom of expression by yelling fire in a cinema. Reprinting these images is just that, adding fuel to the chaos. That doesn't mean to say I think we should out right stop printing any type of sensitive material. Just for now, one of us has to have the courage to do the right thing, and allow for some sanity to get back in place, and then after a while, start a sane dialogue about the rights of religion in a free society*.
This doesn't just apply to Islam, but to all religion and communities.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be completely honest. It is really really hard to not lump them all together in one group whenever you see comments such as the following (emphasis in bold):

Quote:

“Whoever has done this despicable and shameful act, he has challenged the honor of Muslims. Whoever will kill this cursed man, he will get $1 million from the association of the jewelers bazaar, 1 million rupees ($16,700) from Masjid Mohabat Khan and 500,000 rupees ($8,350) and a car from Jamia Ashrafia as a reward,” Qureshi told about 1,000 people outside the mosque after Friday prayers.

This is a unanimous decision by all imams (prayer leaders) of Islam that whoever insults the prophets deserves to be killed and whoever will take this insulting man to his end, will get this prize.


And as a side note... if we follow the same logic being displayed over this cartoon, does this mean I can kill Kanye West because he says he should be in the Bible?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thundar wrote:
I will be completely honest. It is really really hard to not lump them all together in one group whenever you see comments such as the following (emphasis in bold):


Yeah, but we have to be better then that. Plus the fact that you find it hard to not lump all muslims in one group is pretty narrow minded already. I have plenty of muslim friends who aren't the least bit offended by the cartoons and also think the islamic nations are making a mountain of a mole hill, and they certainly do not deserve to be lumped in the same group at all. Question is, if you do meet any muslims on the street or at work, what do you do? Immediately treat them as beneath you? I hope that isn't true. We really have to be better then that and it does take effort to be better then that.

Quote:
And as a side note... if we follow the same logic being displayed over this cartoon, does this mean I can kill Kanye West because he says he should be in the Bible?


Yeah, you could have, during the dark ages around a 1000 years ago (iirc). All these institutions go through phases of self destructive behavior. Christianity went through their own phase. And Islam will have to go through it too. Just suck to witness it in our own time; but then again, imagine what it was like for those that lived during WWI and WWII, where nations were killing each other in incredible numbers. It's like one way or another, humans will find a reason to kill each other.

We really need to learn our history and stop thinking any one group is any more evil then any other. There is no such thing as evil. Just ignorance. Plain human ignorance and stupidity.

Truth be told. I'm no better then you Thundar. If I had a choice to kill every stupid ignorant fucker at a touch of a button, I would press it without hesitation. I know that's wrong, and if I am to be a decent human being I would not choose to kill anybody regardless of their ignorance. But lord, these ignorant idiots make life more difficult then it needs to be. Grrrr! Mad

I want my lovely world back. Man it was great traveling around and meeting new people and experiencing different cultures. Sad Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure what we're seeing will get worse before it gets better. And that's going to suck bad.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
At the same time, I think it's really important for ourselves outside of the Islamic world not to let the idiots make us start using language like 'these people'. We become just as intolerant over time then.


Given the sheer number of people made murderously angry over a couple of drawings, the term "They" is nothing short of accurate to use. Every last "They" are a big fat shit-biscuit who are selfish, myopic, and hatefull. An icon this modern world has passed by, thankfully. Understand this, a moderately minded "They" isn't a "They" at all, rather that person is something else and disclude themselves from the "They" by exuding individual tollerance, wisdom, and prudence in the face of being surrounded by nations of "They-type" thinking.

"They" can go fuck themselves, and often do through the results of "they"re own actions. And it's no one's greater fault than "they"re own. To bad "they" still have the ability to hurt "non-they" through the backwards barbarian ideals "they" exersize.
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This and other statistics can be culled from Jeremy Reimer's Personal Computer Market Share: 1975-2002, a very impressive piece of information gathering. The numbers tell some very interesting stories.
- http://lowendmac.com/musings/03/0131.html

Man, I need to get out more. You know smam is getting to you when you go to a canadian restaurant and start wondering about moose cock. -OscarWilde Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yeah, but we have to be better then that. Plus the fact that you find it hard to not lump all muslims in one group is pretty narrow minded already.


AYB personally wasn't talking about Muslims. AYB was talking about "They". Everyone wants to blame religion these days. All religion is is a powerfull avenue to unite someone with, for good or ill.

In the Middle East, Islam is a very powerfull uniting factor. Many of It's leaders are missusing it's influence horribly for the ends of their own pride, power, and hate. Likewise, those that allow themselves to get caught up in it even though the Light tells them not to are in serious error.

AYB has gotten rid of all such things on Dreetha. Tollerance, forgiveness, and positive idealism and charity have taken over instead.

Smile
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This and other statistics can be culled from Jeremy Reimer's Personal Computer Market Share: 1975-2002, a very impressive piece of information gathering. The numbers tell some very interesting stories.
- http://lowendmac.com/musings/03/0131.html

Man, I need to get out more. You know smam is getting to you when you go to a canadian restaurant and start wondering about moose cock. -OscarWilde Smile
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OscarWilde wrote:

Plus the fact that you find it hard to not lump all muslims in one group is pretty narrow minded already. <snip>


I admit, yes. It is narrow-minded.

This lumping is pretty much in the same manner that everyone else lumps all Christians together in one group. It goes both ways.

That age-old saying where a few rotten apples spoils the whole barrel? Yeah, that definitely applies...


OscarWilde wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure what we're seeing will get worse before it gets better. And that's going to suck bad.


Agreed. It's definitely going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Where's the Death Camp of Tolerance when you need it?
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Well, if you'd quit sacrificing the virgins and screwing the livestock, you wouldn't be in such a predicament!

if you are wondering what smam is, just stick around, it is more a sort of zen than something that a mere definition with mortal words cannot comprehend. You will get the picture of what smam is in short order. It will change your life! -Smamta Clause
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is my question: what does a muslim look like?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before someone asks me what a christian looks like, I'll answer it. Here in HK, where we're far more mixed then in the US*, there are chinese, indian, european, blacks, philippinas, etc., that are practicing christians and they goto church every sunday. So I don't know if there is a christian look. Nor do I know if there is a jewish look or muslim look to begin with. Don't even know what a buddhist looks like. I know for a fact no one knows what a hindu looks like because I get asked all sorts of weird questions on the street, 'are you muslim?' or, 'are you buddhist?', or one time I was asked, 'are you jewish?', even though I come from a hindu family background; but more importantly, i'm agnostic. So atheists and agnostics don't have any specific look cause no one figures out what I am from my own looks.





*Just remember HK is tiny, so when I say far more mixed, I mean it's like taking all the various races and cultures and throwing them on a tiny island. So, ummm, say in HK we more concentrated, if that makes sense. The US is diverse in culture and race too, but just more space to spread that diversity around. If we spread our diversity around in Hong Kong, we'd be drowning most of it in the South China Sea. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OscarWilde wrote:
Here is my question: what does a muslim look like?
Confused That makes no sense.
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Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magus wrote:
OscarWilde wrote:
Here is my question: what does a muslim look like?
Confused That makes no sense.


I meant as in: what is the stereotype of a muslim person in the US. After 9/11 i've been asked a lot of times if I'm muslim, where as before I was never asked. Funny thing is, in terms of features, percentage of population in countries, ethnic origin, etc., Indians and the majority of the real muslim population in the rest of the world isn't really synonymous. I'd understand the stereotype if there was actually a large percentage (like way over 50%) that can trace their heritage back to India, but that isn't the case at all. I figured you guys could help answer why the sudden shift in stereotype, or if the stereotype has always been that way but after 9/11 the stereotype has been magnified in the public consciousness.

Really, this is just idle curiosity and nothing more. And equally, not what you guys personally think, but as in your observations of society in general. I could tell you a ton of ignorant shit the local population of Hong Kong believe in. We could even compare notes and laugh at them. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I currently work with a muslim. He thinks the outrage over these cartoons is ridiculous. He thinks the leaders telling their people to overreact is ridiculous. No word yet on whether or not he himself finds the cartoons funny.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mord wrote:
I currently work with a muslim. He thinks the outrage over these cartoons is ridiculous. He thinks the leaders telling their people to overreact is ridiculous. No word yet on whether or not he himself finds the cartoons funny.


Are the cartoons even funny to begin with? Maybe Team America spoilt me or something because the cartoons were tame and inoffensive. Derka derka, jihad, mohammed ali, derka derka! Hell, I think Jon Stewart has spoilt me. Did you see his gags for Cheney and the shot gun accident on the daily show this week? Man, some of that shit is offensive, but hella damn funny too.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magus wrote:
If the rioters and those calling for assassinations are the exception instead of the rule, why are they not denounced by the peaceful Muslims? Why is there no condemnation?

There's actually been plenty. The catch is that it doesn't get covered in the mainstream media, because such stories don't get as many hits as people dying.

I can furnish links if you like. I dug some up a couple of weeks ago in about 10 minutes of searching Google News. I probably have them around somewhere.

Magus wrote:
I'm fully aware that the cartoons in question are considered offensive, even blasphemous, but that in no way excuses the behavior we're seeing.

I agree completely.

There is, however, a lot more to it than this. The cartoons were printed in September 2005 and there was subsequently one peaceful protest in Denmark. At the behest of the Muslim community, Danish police opened an investigation to ensure that the cartoons did not contravene the country's hate speech laws; they concluded that no contravention had taken place. Six of the cartoons were printed in an Egyptian newspaper with no significant outcry.

Then, a group of radical Danish imams, dissatisfied with the lack of outrage among their fellow Muslims and the lack of apology from the newspaper, compiled a 43-page dossier documenting instances of what they deemed Danish discrimination against Muslims. In addition to the original 12 cartoons, the imams added three vastly more offensive cartoons. At least one is suspected of being a forgery. They took this dossier on a "tour" of the Middle East, showing it to political and religious leaders. Then the violent protests started. Around the same time, European newspapers started reprinting the cartoons in a juvenile show of "solidarity" with the original Danish paper.

It's hardly surprising that violence ensued, given that the Danish imams obviously went to the Middle East with the intent of provoking a reaction. Whether they thought it would go this far is impossible to say, but they certainly deserve a large share of the blame.

It is also massively hypocritical for the governments of Syria and Saudi Arabia in particular to react as they have, since insulting depictions of Jews are hardly uncommon in their media outlets. Something about glass houses and stones.

There is a larger question here, however, and that is the question of how Europe is going to deal with is burgeoning immigrant Muslim population. So far, the answer has been "Not well."
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

There is, however, a lot more to it than this. The cartoons were printed in September 2005 and there was subsequently one peaceful protest in Denmark. At the behest of the Muslim community, Danish police opened an investigation to ensure that the cartoons did not contravene the country's hate speech laws; they concluded that no contravention had taken place. Six of the cartoons were printed in an Egyptian newspaper with no significant outcry.

Then, a group of radical Danish imams, dissatisfied with the lack of outrage among their fellow Muslims and the lack of apology from the newspaper, compiled a 43-page dossier documenting instances of what they deemed Danish discrimination against Muslims. In addition to the original 12 cartoons, the imams added three vastly more offensive cartoons. At least one is suspected of being a forgery. They took this dossier on a "tour" of the Middle East, showing it to political and religious leaders. Then the violent protests started. Around the same time, European newspapers started reprinting the cartoons in a juvenile show of "solidarity" with the original Danish paper.


Thanks for this; I knew there was more to the story but I hadn't yet figured out all the details.

I have to say, though, that the reaction to the cartoons is really indefensible. Firebombing embassies? That's just pathetic.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the twinkster wrote:
Then, a group of radical Danish imams, dissatisfied with the lack of outrage among their fellow Muslims and the lack of apology from the newspaper, compiled a 43-page dossier documenting instances of what they deemed Danish discrimination against Muslims. In addition to the original 12 cartoons, the imams added three vastly more offensive cartoons. At least one is suspected of being a forgery. They took this dossier on a "tour" of the Middle East, showing it to political and religious leaders. Then the violent protests started.



If all that is true, it's really much more tragically dumb, especially seeing as at the moment, all the damage is being done within the middle east itself, and muslims themselves are dying by their own hands because they're being led by radical clerics into this behavior. Both sides, the followers and the clerics are to blame for this; and as I've said above, this type of thinking usually is self-destructive as extreme intolerance often never survives in human society. There is no case in history where a pocket of intolerance has survived from I know. Sure these pockets may gain in popularity and power, but eventually, they get eroded or completely destroy themselves.
So lets hope the radical clerics and the equally ignorant radical followers just burn themselves to the ground. That may sound wrong on my part, but seriously, what else can one do to prevent extremist? I tell you, the answer is simple, infuriate at them to the point where they just hurt themselves before they do anything else to anyone else outside of the extreme group.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused How did I end up with a double post? I only clicked submit once... weird
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy Reimer wrote:
I have to say, though, that the reaction to the cartoons is really indefensible. Firebombing embassies? That's just pathetic.

Indeed. I couldn't agree more.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the twinkster wrote:
Jeremy Reimer wrote:
I have to say, though, that the reaction to the cartoons is really indefensible. Firebombing embassies? That's just pathetic.

Indeed. I couldn't agree more.

I concur.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Damn it, I should have concurred!"
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