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Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:10 am Post subject: Death penalties in MMORPGS?

I would have started this in the Glanadh forum, but I don't want to just talk about WoW, and I want to discuss it in a smammy way.

I should preface this by saying that I've been reading a lot of the WoW articles on the Terra Nova blog (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova). There's lots of good stuff there, particularly about social quirks, and the economics of the various Auction systems in different games.

I think it has to do with how there is a subscription.....people don't want to pay $15 a month just to end up dieing and ruining weeks of progress. Is dying in WoW inconvenient? Yes. Especially when you're in an instance and some of the rules are different than open play. But do you really feel it? I think not.

Maybe I'm just a hard liner because I cut my gaming teeth on MUDs. In most MUDs I tended towards, you died and respawned as a naked person. This created a need for "corpse runs" or CRs, where maybe guild members would help you retrieve your corpse (and thus all of your equipment and on-hand cash, whatever wasn't in the bank). There was a sense of urgency because if you didn't hurry, you might get looted by a PC, and if you were actually ganked and/or killed in a populated area by a n NPC mob, chances are you were already looted by your murderer or a lucky passerby (which was frowned upon but not always enforced). And to top it all off, you typically lost progress in the form of a %age of xp gained that level, or sometimes a level. You get the idea. There were many different ways to do it, but generally it was a big thing.

Now, I'm a bit biased. I haven't experienced the length and breadth of different implementations of death systems. Other than a brief beta run on Lineage II (maybe a few days) with Dvixen, WoW is probably the only modern MMORPG I've played. So the only thing I really have to compare the WoW death system to is NWN and MUDs. And with both NWN and MUDs, death systems there run the gamut of different styles and shapes, limited only by your coding ability and creativity.

I think a harder death system really sets a line between heroes and regular people. In fact, I'd like to explore the idea of perma-death. It might turn off a lot of players, but a WoW server with permadeath would really turn your level into a status. Lets talk theory. What makes a good death system, and why is WoWs so lenient?
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.

AlphaMeridian · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:15 am Post subject:

I played MUDs too, and woudn't pay a penny for a game with a permadeath system, only because the game is supposed to be fun. It's way too much work to make sure that you don't die - Everyone would become too risk averse.

-Alpha
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So Lonestar, now you see why evil will always triumph because good is dumb!

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:16 am Post subject:

I think the choice would be neat. Like being able to play on a PvP server.

But you're right, I doubt I would want to pay a subscription for ONLY a permadeath system.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.

Jay · **Ex OSYer** Captain Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 1589

WoW is lenient because they want to avoid pissing off players as much as possible. Pissed off players are more capable of cancelling their accounts. It's the same reason that selling drugs laced with poison is bad - repeat business == $++

Jeremy Reimer · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:19 pm Post subject:

I have mixed feelings about the issue.

On one hand, it would be neat if death really meant something other than a couple of minutes of inconvenience.

On the other hand, if the penalty was too high, it would really piss me off when I died. If I spent hours and got lucky and gained some neat equipment, I would be SO pissed if I ran back to my corpse and some n00b griefer had just walked away with it.

Although it might be interesting to see the dynamics of a permadeath server. Would anyone take any risks at all? Would there be any PvP or would people be too scared?
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan

"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord

"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named

kingpinmc · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:27 pm Post subject:

With permadeath you might actually see factions forming of player characters. With dictators and such. I don't kill you as long as you do thus and such. Join my side, I am your father!
_________________
"Then I saw little Tiffany. I'm thinkin', you know, eight year old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters, this time of night with quantum physics books? She's about to start some shit, Zed.” - J - Men in Black

So.....

Maxi Does Dallas?

Twisted Evil

- Mord

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:53 pm Post subject:

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:00 pm Post subject:

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:07 pm Post subject:

I also remember a time when a group of OSYers (myself, Magus, and JJB) finished a particularly grueling Scarlet Monastery run (a mid-level instance) and we began to discuss the logistics of getting back out of this part so we could do another part.

It had taken us a while so of course the entire level respawned behind us. We were safe for the moment but unless we were all just going to recall to our respective homes we had to decide what next. I was a proponent of "dying out", where we all just commit Seppuku and run from the graveyard back to the start of the level again, and go into the next part. (This is a good example of me not thinking death is anything to fear). This was not a popular idea, but in the interest of time I didn't push for an explanation. We attempted to "run" which resulted in mine and Magus' death. JJB made a run for it and almost made, and I'll never forget the sight of nearly 100 Scarlet Monks chasing the poor guy down. And he almost made it. Almost.

In the end, I pushed for why we shouldn't have died out, and the answer was very practical, and a good example of how the current WoW death system actually IS a deterrent. When you die, all of your equipped gear takes a 10% durability hit, which means it costs money to repair, and you risk losing an item if its already taken a beating. JJBs character has very high end gear, and its all plate and some such. It would have cost him several gold to repair, so for him, its totally worth not dying and losing probably all of the money we made for going there in the first place.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.

kingpinmc · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject:

Not saying I am for permadeath, I would have to see it in action. But if you get your ass kicked there needs to be some type of penalty. I like the purgatory idea of fighting your way out, or maybe if you don't want to do that you and have enough gold you can buy your way out, but with a stonger penalty.
_________________
"Then I saw little Tiffany. I'm thinkin', you know, eight year old white girl, middle of the ghetto, bunch of monsters, this time of night with quantum physics books? She's about to start some shit, Zed.” - J - Men in Black

So.....

Maxi Does Dallas?

Twisted Evil

- Mord

Jeremy Reimer · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:35 pm Post subject:

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject:

Jeremy Reimer · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject:

I think it happened to me once. I tend not to notice as my stuff degrades...
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan

"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord

"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named

Magus · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:57 pm Post subject:

Jeremy: Get the TitanPanel addon, and have it display Durability. It'll show the overall state of your equipment. It's served as a warning to me several times. Very Happy

Mord: You're a masochist, aren't you? Very Happy

As for the death system in WoW:

You have two choices, covered in a minute, but regardless of which you choose, you take 10% durability loss to all equipped items on death. That doesn't sound like much, but the higher your kit is, the more it'll cost. When an item hits 0%, true you don't lose it, but it no longer works. Say for a breastplate, it no longer grants any of the bonuses and no longer grants any armor whatsoever. Obviously a bad thing, and almost certainly going to make your wallet wince. This applies to weapons too, which is potentially crippling.

Now for the choices. Again, by the time you get this choice, you've already taken a 10% durability hit, for which you have to pay.

1) You may run back to your body, and, when close enough, resurrect. Often, this means a LONG run across the entire map. Bad enough solo, horrid in groups, as it may mean death for party members since there's one less person for the monsters to chomp on.

Thing is, you'll have maybe 1/4 of your health and mana (for mana classes, duh), any buffs are gone, and you're right there near whatever killed you. Usually monsters run back to their patrol after you die, but they can still be close enough to notice you and come nail you in your weakened state. It thus shouldn't be hard to see how you can be forced to make multiple tries, losing 10% durability each time, as well as any supplies you attempted to use (bandages, potions, etc).

2) You may be raised by the spirit healer at the graveyard. Your items suffer additional damage and you suffer Resurrection Sickness. In this, for fifteen minutes (which can be a short eternity, believe me Wink

) all your attributes and armor rating are decreased by a whopping 75%. Yes, if your durability was bad enough to disable an item, the decrease stacks. You are HIGHLY vulnerable in this state to anything near your level. Unless your body is unreachable or it'd be suicide to respawn at it, this option is generally a bad idea.

Maybe on a PVP server, I can see permadeath, but then that only encourages gankers. As it is, even on PVE, there are gankers. Sometimes to get where you need to go, you have to kill an enemy NPC, which flags you for PVP combat for five minutes. During that time, depending where I am, I may just stealth and wait it out, because I've had one too many times of fighting for my life against monsters, only to have someone see his chance and knife me. Remember, on a PVP server, you're ALWAYS fair game.

Further, a lot of my kit and all of my cash took lots of work, I'd be pissed as hell to lose it. Using the Scarlet Monastery example, our group busted our asses to take the library and get those elite caster items. Why on earth should some little creep be able to walk off with them?
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<Paolo|Work> anything that has to do with Java is by definition stupid

1 The Network is my domain, I shall not want; 2 though it makes me wait upon collision, it leads me to the Internet; 3 it restores my connection. It leads me in paths of hypertext transfer for google's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of power failures, I fear no data corruption; for backups art with me; thy UPS and thy status light, they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a firewall before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my CD-R with BurnProof, my buffer never underflows. 6 Surely good deals and pr0n shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Datacenter for ever.
-HitScan

Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject:

Magus · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:29 pm Post subject:

Mord · Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:24 am Post subject:

I had temporarily forgotten about honor points. An easy solution to that would be to make kills below a certain level dishonorable instead of honourable.

In fact, when I was still new to WoW and discovered "greys" (mobs that give no experience because they are too low a level), I was almost certain that dishonorable kills were PvP "grey" kills. It wasn't until I started to hit the Battlegrounds that I found this wasn't true. Turns out DKs are civilians, and I don't even recall seeing a civilian until I was almost level 30.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.

AllYorBaseRBelong2Us · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:55 am Post subject:

Magus · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:22 am Post subject:

No time like the present. Smile

It doesn't matter if you join later, since most of us have alts at various levels and could group with you that way. Recently, Mord, JR, and I all tried our low levels.

Mord = Night Elf warrior "Linuxe"
JR = human paladin "Jeromius"
me = Gnome warlock "Morngol"

Took some getting used to, but still fun. Smile

_________________
<Paolo|Work> anything that has to do with Java is by definition stupid

1 The Network is my domain, I shall not want; 2 though it makes me wait upon collision, it leads me to the Internet; 3 it restores my connection. It leads me in paths of hypertext transfer for google's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of power failures, I fear no data corruption; for backups art with me; thy UPS and thy status light, they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a firewall before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my CD-R with BurnProof, my buffer never underflows. 6 Surely good deals and pr0n shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Datacenter for ever.
-HitScan

Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone

Mord · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject:

Jeremy Reimer · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:14 pm Post subject:

Mord · Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:42 pm Post subject:

The deal is where current subscribers to WoW can buy up to three "christmas gifts" of WoW for $19.99 each. Each copy of WoW comes with the first month free. I only just got billed for the first time. I played for free for around 40 days.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.

FondueDaredevil · Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:34 pm Post subject:

I play once a week, AYB, you will catch up with me easily. Smile

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Jay · **Ex OSYer** Captain Joined: 09 May 2003 Posts: 1589

Mord · Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:27 am Post subject:

I wish. He's a she by the way. Wearing a nice leopard print top at the moment.

I really really really want a pet penguin for her, but I've been told they don't exist.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil

Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.