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Jay
Ex OSYer
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Joined: 09 May 2003
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 Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: When will the Penguins stop kidding themselves? |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Second, what Linus says regarding LotD is irrelevant; he's a kernel hacker not an Interface designer. When he talks about memory management or cross-platform compatibility I listen but when he discusses GUI design I take it with a grain of salt. |
See thats the major disconnect. Most people believe LOTD is all about the GUI. It's not. The fact is that GUIs like Gnome 2.12 and the latest KDE aren't bad at all. I have no problem with the GUIs. Most users probably wouldn't have any really huge issues with the default GUIs provided on most mainstream distros either.
The GUI means nothing if the hardware that supports it simply isn't allowed to work correctly. Thats the real tragedy of LOTD. All of the man hours and effort that have been poured in KDE and Gnome aren't going to amount to anything without something that really just works behind them. That something has yet to materialize.
| Quote: |
| Finally, as far as 'Windows has eclipsed Linux in virtually every way imaginable in that time period' you clearly see the world through Microsoft-colored glasses to make such a bold statement. |
It's certainly not any bolder than the rallying cries of "LOTD RSN!" that I keep hearing from so many people (yourself not included). I mean lets review what Windows does well:
1) Works on my desktop. Check.
2) Works on my workstation. Check.
3) Works on my laptop. Check.
4) Works on my server. Check.
On the OS side of things, Windows really does rule the roost in my book. It's run on everything from the most piddly of boxes you are likely to find nowadays to "big iron" wannabe x86 boxes. Linux seems to work well enough in the server room but when it comes to the convience provided by tools like Group Policy, Linux simply doesn't compare in this area.
So if you think I'm wearing Microsoft-colored glasses, thats fine. MS is winning and everybody else is losing. There is a reason for this and the cries of "monopoly" just aren't cutting it anymore as Microsoft's less than stellar performances in other markets only demonstrates that they can be beat if the competition is out there. Too bad its not there with it comes to Operating Systems. Though they aren't doing too great in the ERP market and in all honesty, the XBOX could've done better.
I think it's high tme the Linux community took a long realistic look at why things are the way they are instead of continuing to pat themselves on the back for a job not so well done while passing the blame like it was some kind of hot potato.
That strategy clearly isn't working.
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
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Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Of course it doesn't help that Linus himself has started spewing it...
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Is he? Linkage? That would represent a stark change in attitude from Linus' traditional "it's just for fun" stance.
Incidentally, if you haven't already, read his book called "Just for Fun". It's a really good book, and he takes some potshots at OSX and Steve Jobs as well which is kind of amusing but mostly it's just a good read.
I also agree with Fondue that the people who chant "LotD"! are cringe-worthy and they make people who use Linux for real work look bad.
Remember, at OSY we're supposed to be about supporting people who use fringe OSes, not tarring them all with the same brush. Right? Right? AMIGAOS 4 FOREVER!!! 
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Jay
Ex OSYer
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Joined: 09 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:01 am Post subject: |
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Linkage:
From October 2003:
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| Desktop is what I use, and desktop is technically much more challenging anyway. Clearly most people who use Linux on the desktop tend to be pretty technical, right now. The nice thing is that is changing. It's changing mainly inside companies that just decided, "Hey, our secretaries are actually better off using Linux, because we don't want them playing solitaire. (Laughter.) That's how DOS came to be, right? Linux has solitaire too, but you can control better how to install it. Right? People who bought PCs for home, initially, did so because they used them at work. So that's the way things get done, and it does seem to be happening. |
Of course it doesn't help that his vision of just how much control a Windows Admin has over their systems is terribly off - however here he seems to be pretty in touch with reality.
From January 2004:
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| Now, the kernel and other pieces are coming together including office applications, games and Web browsers. This has made the Linux desktop interesting to commercials. Commercials tend to choose one desktop, such as KDE or GNOME (GNU Network Object Model Environment), and stick with it. There has been some confusion and rivalry that has helped its development. Right now it looks like the two are closing in on each other, for example, with Red Hat’s Bluecurve interface. |
So Linus now appears to be indicating that something is going to happen... RSN...
From December 2004:
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Is the limiting factor for Linux on the desktop engineering or marketing?
It's a combination of things. (There's) engineering in the sense that there's a lot of details around that can be improved, there's the marketing/perception side and most importantly there's the "user inertia" side.
People tend to stay with (and like) the thing they are used to, and I think that has been the biggest limiting factor for the last year or so, and is only getting more so--i.e., the technology is there, but people aren't mentally ready to make the switch. That's why I think the commercial desktop is important: It's what made DOS (and later Windows) feel familiar to people, and I think that's where the more general desktop push ends up happening. But it's going to take years. |
Ohhhh.... Ohhhh... It's getting better!
From October 2005:
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What about Linux on the desktop? Why hasn't it taken off?
Oh, it has absolutely taken off, but some people seem to think that "take off" means that suddenly everybody is running it. That's clearly not true. It's a very slow conversion. There are more people running it this year than there were last year, and it all looks and works a bit better all the time. But did everybody suddenly convert? No. It's one step at a time.
Some people seem to think that we got where we are overnight. Not so. I've been doing Linux for 15 years, and hey, if it takes another 5 or 10 for the desktop to be a big part of the market, that's what it will take. |
Now to his credit he has never said that LOTD would happen overnight. Clearly he lives under the delusion that LOTD is quite ready however and that the issue of the switch is more of a comfort zone thing. Corporate Desktops != Home Desktops. The two aren't even close to one another in my book. Running well on a thousand standard desktop boxes at some corporation is a lot different than running on a thousand different desktop boxes at home. They just aren't directly comparable.
Anyway I expect next year we will see Linus fall more into the trap of LOTD. His progression is suddle but he is making it bit by bit. Perhaps I'll try to dig up some more examples later...
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Jay
Ex OSYer
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Joined: 09 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Incidentally, if you haven't already, read his book called "Just for Fun". It's a really good book, and he takes some potshots at OSX and Steve Jobs as well which is kind of amusing but mostly it's just a good read. |
Yeah I own that book.
| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Remember, at OSY we're supposed to be about supporting people who use fringe OSes, not tarring them all with the same brush. Right? Right? AMIGAOS 4 FOREVER!!! |
It's not like I don't support those people. But I'm tired of the illusion of LOTD. If other people want to make the comprimises required to stick with LOTD, more power to them. They are the people who might just eventually force the community to fix the problems that it seems to be in denial over. As for me, I've got work to do 
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DuffMan
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Joined: 25 Feb 2001
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Location: In mah pants!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Red Flag Linux!
Notice: Parts of the source code may have been removed due to the fact that are considered to be counter-revolutionary.
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7833
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| Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:27 am Post subject: |
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_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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Mord
Console Cowboy
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Joined: 04 Sep 2002
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Location: Where the rubber meets the road.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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I think it's high tme the Linux community took a long realistic look at why things are the way they are instead of continuing to pat themselves on the back for a job not so well done while passing the blame like it was some kind of hot potato.
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I agree with this statement, and I have more linux boxes than windows boxes in my home.
| Linus wrote: |
Linux has solitaire too, but you can control better how to install it.
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Bah, I expect better from this guy. This simply isn't true.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil
Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie.
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DuffMan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Well I can find some truth in that solitare statement. Windows still has the problem that not giving users admin rights will break a lot of apps. The blame for this should go to the app designers as well, but its still a big problem.
For example at work, I gave the engineers admin access over their own machines, because its just too much hassel not to. All the computers at work have the games removed durring the unattended setup of windows. One particularly engineering engineer realized that he could install the windows solitare from add/remove windows components. Didn't even need the XP cd to do it.
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Jay
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Group Policy is your friend:
Granted this only restricts execution of said program when it is started through Windows Explorer - but most people aren't going to try launching the process from the command prompt. Of course a couple of entries up is the setting that allows you to disable access to the command prompt |
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DuffMan
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| Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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More trouble than its worth really. Besides, all work and no solitare make employees go crazy.
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Riso
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:53 am Post subject: |
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I don't know about you, but playing Solitaire makes me crazy.
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"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways Lord Reimer, your sad devotion to that ancient OS have not helped you conjure up the Guru Meditation or given you clarvoyance enough to find 1% marketshare"
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Jay
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| My wife LOVES Solitaire. For her birthday a few months back one of the items I gave her was a copy of SolSuite 2005. It is a rather large collection (~450) of Soltaire games for the PC. Of course all she plays is Klondike. Before watching her play, I would've said the game was entirely luck but she is quite good. She's gotten her win percentage over time up to 34% (out of around 4000 games as the program tracks all the stats) and thats pretty good considering the "odds" of winning it specifies are far lower. |
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:47 am Post subject: |
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That's pretty good. I love playing solitaire* myself and will play it on my iPod while I take a dump. I refuse to leave till I win a game, and I usually do, even if it means sitting in the bathroom for half an hour and getting my ass sore. Lucky for me, I know now how to read cards that are not going to set themselves up for a complete game, so I don't always try to the point where I can't make a move anymore. So I start a new game and try again.
I also am now getting into Sudoku (Number Place) at the moment and am having fun learning and mastering the game.
*I almost had the PERFECT Solitaire game. I call a 'perfect solitaire game' a game where you can start off setting up all of the cards without having to open the top left deck up. And then the top deck order lends themselves to getting rid of the cards and winning. i.e. If the solitaire game is really easy because everything seems to be set up to win without effort. The probability of that happening is very low, but you can get close to those types of game. I almost sorta had this close to pure perfect solitaire game. However, I fucked up, and my iPod doesn't allow me to reverse moves. 
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'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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Mord
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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I used to play a ton of Solitaire back when I was on dial-up to the University modem pool. Now with broadband, not so much.
There's actually a copy of Solitaire on the recent Palm handhelds. Took them long enough...
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Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil
Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie. |
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
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Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:22 am Post subject: |
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There is no Solitaire that comes installed on the Mac, except for Chess. Chess I like but haven't played it in ages. Plus the Chess that comes on Mac OS X is a wee bit hard. What I don't get is why Apple has Solitaire on the millions and millions of iPods (incl. mini and nano) that have already been sold, but have not yet made iSolitaire for Mac OS X? Although we do get Burning Monkey Solitaire, which I think is also made for the PCs.
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'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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Mord
Console Cowboy
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Chess isn't a good Solitaire game. If I sit down and bang through a game of chess, I'll lose. I prefer to put some serious thought into it, pre-playing 3 or 4 moves ahead. Losing is much more satisfying that way.*
*I've always sucked at chess.
_________________
Give a guy a gun, he thinks he's Superman. Give him two and he thinks he's God. - Superintendant Pang, Lashou shentan (a.k.a. Hard-Boiled)
I note that you don't have any OSY member quotes in your sig. - the twinkster
Nonsense. "Bias" is people whom don't agree with me. - FondueDaredevil
Gabe: I wish you weren't a fucking liar.
Tycho: I'm not a liar.
Gabe: Well, I wish you didn't lie. |
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Jay
Ex OSYer
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Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
| *I almost had the PERFECT Solitaire game. I call a 'perfect solitaire game' a game where you can start off setting up all of the cards without having to open the top left deck up. And then the top deck order lends themselves to getting rid of the cards and winning. i.e. If the solitaire game is really easy because everything seems to be set up to win without effort. The probability of that happening is very low, but you can get close to those types of game. I almost sorta had this close to pure perfect solitaire game. However, I fucked up, and my iPod doesn't allow me to reverse moves. |
Thats the great thing about SolSuite. It gives you the random number seed it used to generate each game and saves it in your history. My wife can literally go back and replay any hand of the 3000 games of Solitaire she has played in the last few months with just a click of the mouse. For $20 that program really does rock.
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Jay
Ex OSYer
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Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Has anybody seen the MSH article up on Ars? Wow.
http://arstechnica.com/guides/other/msh.ars/1
That has got to be the cleanest most powerful CLI environment I have ever seen. I would love to rewrite some of my WSH VbScripts using this stuff. |
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
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Joined: 02 Mar 2001
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Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Mord wrote: |
Chess isn't a good Solitaire game. If I sit down and bang through a game of chess, I'll lose. I prefer to put some serious thought into it, pre-playing 3 or 4 moves ahead. Losing is much more satisfying that way.*
*I've always sucked at chess. |
I am, or was, very good at chess. I remember playing at UC Berkeley where I had these great chess players hit themselves on their heads (odd, indeed!) trying to beat me. They did beat me eventually, only because I thought it very strange to be so caught up in winning and that distracted me. I just love to play chess and various other puzzle games. That's it. So it's funny seeing people struggle to play against me that are really serious into the game. hee hee hee...
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality)
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