Pegasus3d.com

moley · Midshipman Joined: 23 Aug 2002 Posts: 8

Calling all web-heads...someone please tell me in words of 1 syllable or less why webpages with frames are so terrible.

I see much value in a single frame with navigation buttons in it, yet keep reading that Frames Are Bad.
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Madan · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 4:49 am Post subject:

One word: Trends.

Trending for frames was telling.

They simply were inconsistent on older browsers and would break on older browsers. From this, sprung the "Frames / No Frames" pages that would allow you to choose. While I'm sure there *has* to be at least ONE comparably new browser that will have occasional problems with frames, they no longer are such an iffy proposition. They work well on all the browsers I've seen lately.

Which probably explains why xframes are being used to replace regular frames in the upcoming XHTML 2 standard.

Frames were also thought to be slow and, since you're loading multiple files for one page, they can slow down your page but not by a huge amount.

All in all, I don't use frames for three reasons:

A. They entail too much work imo. To have files referring to themselves along with all the other ASP/CFML referrals is just too much for me to kep track of.

B. Users have a hard time with printing out of frames. I had this problem helping a worker print out of a frame last week. You have to select the frame before you print and heaven help you if you want ALL frames on a print out to be aligned exactly like the page.

C. There's no real advantage to me using them. Frames are usually for multi-paned pages and even my ASP files are rarely multi-paned.

*shrug*

moley · Midshipman Joined: 23 Aug 2002 Posts: 8

Having a navigation frame has made life easier for me to set up & maintain a few simple websites. As long as the frame border is zero I don't have an issue with them.
BTW have you checked out the Yale Web Style Guide at http://www.webstyleguide.com/ ? The book is cool too...
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Thundar · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:49 am Post subject:

The only way that I could possibly justify frames is for a navigational system. Even so, there still must not be any border, and the background has to stay consistent across both frames throughout the entire site.

Plus, why hassle with keeping up with the names of various frames when you can also do a navigational system using DIVs?
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Jeremy Reimer · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 6:58 am Post subject:

I like frames. The best part is when you add links inside a frame and deliberately confine their targets to that frame, so you can contain the entire IntarWeb within your own website!! Muahahahahaha!!

I think the New York Times tried suing somebody over that, until they realized the whole futility of it all.
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jdsmith575 · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:02 am Post subject:

Check out the W3C.org's ideas on helping people with disabilities access web pages.

I met a guy two weeks ago who was blind. He had to use an add on program for Windows that read every option on the page (and all throughout Windows) as he selected it. According to him, hiding navigation in frames and tables makes it really hard to navigate the site.

And I believe that all orgs given state/federal funding have to be compliant. I could be wrong about that though.
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Mord · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 7:16 am Post subject:

My current personal web site (a site -not- linked in my profile), uses frames. My personal opinion is that they are clunky, but very easy to use which is why I used them.

My next site, which I have begun construction on but was delayed due to the busy-ness that comes with summer, should be published in the fall. In this version, I am hosting it myself and trying things out like server side includes and cascading style sheets. I was going to go for dynamic content as well, but I will probably delay that for a future release upgrade.

N-E-way, when this site is up, I will update my profile and possibly announce it for some criticism/review. (its actually up right now....but JOO CAN'T FIND IT!) Twisted Evil

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Magus · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 10:13 am Post subject:

HitScan · Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:04 pm Post subject:

They're considered bad because they're so damn hard to get right, and because Users Just Don't Get It(TM). They don't know why The whole thing doesn't scroll like they think it should, and printing is always a pain in the ass. To expound on the hard to get right thing, it's just too much trouble to associate this link with that frame and et cetera, for every single link.
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arhra · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:09 am Post subject:

the biggest problem with them is that they make it nigh-on impossible to bookmark a particular page within the frameset, since the bookmarks store the top-level page, which when you reload it, puts you back right at the start again.

they also cause problems for screen readers, and would be a major pain in the arse to navigate with other limited browsers (pdas, mobile phones, etc).
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arhra · Posted: Fri Sep 06, 2002 12:13 am Post subject:

although, there are some situations where they work perfectly, at least for traditional browsers, the way google groups uses them to display an overview of the whole thread you're reading for instance.
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