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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7833
Location: 789-M
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 Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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How many Navy ships had been at sea without break for 290 days and had just completed 1000's of war sorties?
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I'm guessing lots.
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Anybody who thinks Karl Rove would allow Bush to make such a massive misstep and that the banner wasn't put there on purpose, needs to really rethink the dynamics of how this presidency works. I won't debate that the banner might have meant one thing and we are taking it in a different meaning, however given the way in which that banner was used and displayed it is foolish to believe that there wasn't an impression that the administration was trying to convey.
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Exactly.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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MasterOfTheHat
Commander
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 794
Location: In a galaxy far, far, far, far, really really far away...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Jay wrote: |
| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
I'll repeat my earlier question:
How many naval ships put up giant naval banners saying "Mission Accomplished" at exactly the right height and font size to be clearly visible above a person giving a carefully scripted speech?
I'm guessing just the one. |
Anybody who thinks Karl Rove would allow Bush to make such a massive misstep and that the banner wasn't put there on purpose, needs to really rethink the dynamics of how this presidency works. I won't debate that the banner might have meant one thing and we are taking it in a different meaning, however given the way in which that banner was used and displayed it is foolish to believe that there wasn't an impression that the administration was trying to convey.
Donald Rumsfeld is on "Face the Nation" this morning. Dodge. Dodge. Dodge. It's quite amusing. When asked what impact does the fact that 60% of people in the country no longer support the war have, we started his response with, "We have a president who knows this war needs to be fought...'
/me sighs
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Because I'm lazy and this thread has become uber-long... What did you say about pulling out of Iraq, Jay? Should we pull them all out now or wait until the "job is finished"?
And you, too, JR. What was your stand?
_________________
For my fellow OSYers - You know you're addicted to programming when:"The people you respect most you have never physically seen or spoken to, but you always bow to their knowledge."
*Quantum physics texts are an excellent source of 100% of the recommended daily alowance of "WTF!?!" - HitScan
support.microsoft's cause for a 0x0000007f STOP error:
"• Your computer has hardware or software problems. "
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| MasterOfTheHat wrote: |
| Because I'm lazy and this thread has become uber-long... What did you say about pulling out of Iraq, Jay? Should we pull them all out now or wait until the "job is finished"? |
Stay until the "job is finished". I also said it would be wise to kick off a draft to help raise the chances of the job actually being finished. It seems clear that we don't have enough people there.
Given the statements made by the Administration it is hard to know exactly what set of conditions constitutes the "job being finished". I think Congress ought to push the Bush Admin for some sort of plan (not necessacarily a timeline) that details the end game conditions (assuming they even know themselves).
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Riso
Commodore
Joined: 28 Feb 2001
Posts: 3019
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Bleh, you are in there for another year at least, when the Iraq police is finally ready to do their peacekeeping alone.
_________________
Miss Congeniality
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways Lord Reimer, your sad devotion to that ancient OS have not helped you conjure up the Guru Meditation or given you clarvoyance enough to find 1% marketshare"
- FondueDaredevil
"[...] we view customers as complete morons that will never catch on and [...] we're lying to them all the time."
- Gabe Newell |
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7833
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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And you, too, JR. What was your stand?
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It's an interesting question. My stance would probably be: "you broke it, you fix it (or pay for it)." But it's not entirely clear that they are fixing it. If anything it just gets more and more broken as time goes on. I think Iraqis themselves seem resigned to a civil war, which is depressing.
One thing they might try is set up semi-autonomous zones in Iraq, a Kurdistan in the north, maybe a small Sunni state, who knows? Anything would be better than the chaos they have now. Of course that might just defer violence until later (look at how North and South Vietnam worked out...
The more I learn about history the more humbled I am. Despite the obvious and blatant screwups by the current US admin, the whole "nation building" process is almost impossible to do properly.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Quote: |
And you, too, JR. What was your stand?
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It's an interesting question. My stance would probably be: "you broke it, you fix it (or pay for it)." But it's not entirely clear that they are fixing it. If anything it just gets more and more broken as time goes on. I think Iraqis themselves seem resigned to a civil war, which is depressing.
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Where do you read that it's getting worse?
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Maybe if the US got families from Oklahoma Iraq would already be a peaceful place and not an ounce of insurgency would even be there. Then again, maybe nothing else would be there either.   
And yes, I'm being sarcastic. Just checked out iFilm Viral Video today and saw that.
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Those people aren't quite as bad as these people. In fact this particular group of loons wants to have all their crazy friends transplanted into South Carolina (where I live) as they have decided that we in fact are the closest state in the union to being the religious theocracy that they wish to live in. So apparently they plan to move all of their people here and secede from the union.
According to the local news they've only managed to move six families here. I remember the day my mother told me about these people, she couldn't stop from laughing out loud when she told me that part. It's really kind of pathetic. I mean why move here? If we are already so much like what you want to be, where's the challenge in that? And yet they still cannot manage it.  |
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MasterOfTheHat
Commander
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 794
Location: In a galaxy far, far, far, far, really really far away...
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
Maybe if the US got families from Oklahoma Iraq would already be a peaceful place and not an ounce of insurgency would even be there. Then again, maybe nothing else would be there either.
And yes, I'm being sarcastic. Just checked out iFilm Viral Video today and saw that. |
Woohoo! Dang, that would be fun!
_________________
For my fellow OSYers - You know you're addicted to programming when:"The people you respect most you have never physically seen or spoken to, but you always bow to their knowledge."
*Quantum physics texts are an excellent source of 100% of the recommended daily alowance of "WTF!?!" - HitScan
support.microsoft's cause for a 0x0000007f STOP error:
"• Your computer has hardware or software problems. "
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
Maybe if the US got families from Oklahoma Iraq would already be a peaceful place and not an ounce of insurgency would even be there. Then again, maybe nothing else would be there either.
And yes, I'm being sarcastic. Just checked out iFilm Viral Video today and saw that. |
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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Riso
Commodore
Joined: 28 Feb 2001
Posts: 3019
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Damn. I have never seen so many fat people in one place.
And you know, guns are not for kids, etc,etc...
_________________
Miss Congeniality
"Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerous ways Lord Reimer, your sad devotion to that ancient OS have not helped you conjure up the Guru Meditation or given you clarvoyance enough to find 1% marketshare"
- FondueDaredevil
"[...] we view customers as complete morons that will never catch on and [...] we're lying to them all the time."
- Gabe Newell |
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| I'm pretty sure at some point there was a mini gun involved in that little foray. It's a bit unsettling but hey as long as they stay far away from me I couldn't care less. Still I hope they don't have neighbors that were Nam vets close by as the noise these people generate could serve as a nice trigger for a flashback here and there. |
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7833
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Where do you read that it's getting worse?
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People actually keep track of terrorist attacks and civilian deaths. These have not been going down, rather the opposite.
This is not a good thing.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Well, don't know what to make of this. As a cynic, i'd say that if Iraq's homocide rate (per 100,000) reaches that of the US (which has stabilized to around 6/100,000), then that's one thing the US has done well in exporting to another country. 
On a more optimistic note:
1) I don't think Iraq's future is going to be as bleak as it is now. I do think the sectarian violence will ultimately calm down.
2) I am glad that the over all homicide rates in the US have showed a stable trend and not going upwards as one would have expected after 9/11. A nation under stress may have showed some signs in increased homicide rates.
Maybe we can end the second half of this decade with a positive stride and start progressing forward as human race in harmony. One can only hope. 
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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