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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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 Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| The Iraqi economy is expanding rapidly now that Saddam has been deposed. People have more freedom than ever before, the standard of living is actually higher now than it ever was! There are more schools open now. Water and utilities are more available now. |
Yeah if we ignore the fact that there is a major risk of death everytime they set foot outside, then its all good! In all seriousness, progress has been made.
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| How long is that supposed to take? Do you know of some timetable I'm unaware of that shows that overturning a government and quelling violent foreign interests should follow? You are upset because we aren't accomplishing this fast enough? Should we send in more troops? |
Clearly there is no timetable - but saying that we are winning "hands down" when those conditions aren't close to being met seems a bit pretentious, dont you think? Not to mention the "Mission Accomplished" comment made by Bush in 2003.
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| Please show me where Bush proclaimed this. |
You are kidding right? Here are some choice quotes from the wonderful event on March 2nd, 2003 in which Bush proclaimed "Mission Accomplished" in regards to "Major Combat" operations in Iraq:
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| Moments after the landing, the president, wearing a green flight suit and holding a white helmet, got off the plane, saluted those on the flight deck and shook hands with them. Above him, the tower was adorned with a big sign that read, "Mission Accomplished." |
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| The landing came just hours before Bush is to tell the nation that major combat operations in Iraq have ended. The speech will be delivered from the carrier's flight deck at 9 p.m. EDT. |
And from Bush's speech that evening to the country:
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| Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. |
So frankly - how you and everybody else can continue to complain about unrealistic timeline expectations held by people opposed to this war is beyond me considering that the Commander and Chief himself told us OVER TWO YEARS AGO that was a done deal. So here it is: Either admit Bush lied through his teeth on that aircraft carrier as we are clearly still planning and executing major combat offensives within the battlefield known as Iraq or please cop to the fact that alot of the negative press and angry sentiments about how this war and its actual progress aren't completely unfounded given the statements made by the administration.
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| I agree, but we also need the media to start reporting ALL OF THE NEWS and not just death statistics. |
The media isn't perfect - nor am I nor are you. However Bush did say "Mission Accomplished" and told America "Major Combat Operations in Iraq have Ended". It doesn't get much more clear than that. The war isn't over, isn't close to being over and unless we ratchet up the level of troops by instituting a draft we are going to be there for a VERY long time. And something inside tells me that military recruitment will take an even bigger dive after all those reservists and national guardsmen being kept in Iraq through stop loss come home and have their say in the matter.
Who will defend America then? The whimsical Administration that got us into this mess? I think not.
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| I'll consider your rant retracted. |
It has been. I'm sorry I misunderstood your meaning.
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gisboth
Petty Officer 2nd class
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Routes in which supplies to terrorists can travel to are being cut off. |
Sounds like the Ho Chi Minh Trail, to me.
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| Currently US forces are running an operation near the Syrian border to sever their supply train into the country. |
And, just as the US went into Cambodia in an attempt to sever the Ho Chi Minh Trail, incursions into Syria are now being suggested.
Or, maybe Iran can be the new Laos.
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| When US forces enter a town the citizens quickly come forth with intel on where the terrorists are and where they keep their supplies. |
And when they don't, we'll destroy the village in order to save it.
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| What happens when we tell the enemy our timetable for withdrawal? Our escape plan has already been outlined; We leave when Iraq can stand on it's own two feet. |
Vietnamization.
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| The two wars are apples and oranges. They certainly have a clueless media in common. |
We sure as hell could use more Walter Cronkites, now.
As for similarities, don't listen to me. After all, any one who criticizes this administration is giving aid to the enemy.
Instead, check out Chuck Hagel. Or is he a commie pinko, too.
http://rawstory.com/news/2005/Hagel_blasts_Bush_for_attacking_war_1115.html
_________________
you'd have multiple orgasms in Hong Kong - OscarWilde
Last edited by gisboth on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:30 pm; edited 4 times in total
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| OW, it's already quite too late for that! From the estimates I've read Iraq could make about $20 billion a year from it's Oil supply. The war has cost $251 billion so far ... |
Damnations! Holy shit! 251 billion dollars?  Man you Americans are fucking rich. Can you imagine the number of Powermacs you can buy with that? Two of them!!!
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 We didn't enter the war to get WMD's that was played up too much by the media and some of Bush's cronies - the authorization was to squash a major funder of Terrorism and turnover a clear and present danger that was building in the Middle East through Saddam Hussein's regime. |
Major funder of terrorism? I heard that, but it hasn't been proven how significant Saddam had a role with funding terrorism against the US. There is funding by rich muslims indeed, and it seems to be spread out across the world.
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| Go search back in the news and you'll discover that Terrorism has been around a lot longer than the Iraq war, it's only made us a convenient scapegoat. |
I don't need to go do that at all. India (and a large part of the world) has had to deal with terrorism on their own soil for decades. I'm well aware of it; but the frequency and violence of the terrorist attacks have increased after the Iraq war.
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| I hate reality television ... you know they would edit it to make conflicts where they didn't exist. |
Yeah. I'm aware of that. Which is why this reality show idea is brilliant. We don't need editing to make conflict where it doesn't exist, because the conflict already exists. 
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality)
Last edited by OscarWilde on Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| gisboth wrote: |
| As for similarities, don't listen to me. After all, any one who criticizes this administration is giving aid to the enemy. |
I couldn't possibly listen to you - clearly you didn't get the "Mission Accomplished" memo sir.
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
| Yeah. I'm aware of that. Which is why this reality show idea is brilliant. We don't need editing to make conflict where it doesn't exist, because the conflict already exists. |
They would still edit it. Reality TV is one of the biggest scams perpetuated on the television viewing public in my book. It's never "real" from what I've seen. Some of the shows are more interesting than others - I don't think I could go a week without my "Apprentice" fix**.
** I don't mean the cheesy Martha "I'll write you a letter telling you how great you are after I fired^H^H^H^H^Hsaid goodbye to you in my boardroom^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hconference room after you fumbled the task like a mongoloid would fumble a football" Apprentice. That show is pathetic at best. At least Donald fires the idiots.
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
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| The Iraqi economy is expanding rapidly now that Saddam has been deposed. People have more freedom than ever before, the standard of living is actually higher now than it ever was! There are more schools open now. Water and utilities are more available now. |
Can you back these claims up with various references?
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Nobody else is but sure, I can back them up ... 2005GDP growth was estimated at 54 percent in 2004. This year is also expected to be strong, with GDP growth predicted at 34 percent.
Iraq's "New Dinar" currency, introduced in 2003, has been performing strongly, appreciating by about 25 percent against the dollar in the past two years.
2004Besides crushing human rights, Saddam smothered the Iraqi economy. The dictator, who invaded Iran in 1980 and Kuwait in 1990, ran a war-based economy, diverting resources to the military and starving the rest of the country. Iraq's infrastructure deteriorated; the oil industry alone needs $10 billion to $40 billion of investment to catch up. Saddam and his cronies imposed stiff duties on imports, steered government contracts to loyalists and buried business in regulations. This encouraged a culture of kickbacks and corruption.
"It was a lawless economy governed by one principle: Saddam and the Baathist party took whatever they wanted," says Bill Block, an economist with the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority.
Under Saddam, the shops were silent, the goods available were obsolete or absurdly overpriced, and the cars were clunkers dating back 15 or 20 years. Now that Saddam is gone, signs of bounty are visible everywhere in Baghdad and to a lesser extent in smaller cities such as Mosul and Basra.
2005Iraq is rich not only in petroleum, but also for its agriculture and tourism potential. For years, the country had been impoverished by the regime which had turned Iraq into one big military barrack. Now, the economy is picking up and all sort of goods are on the market. During the embargo, nothing was available. Things have improved also in terms of salaries. For example, at one time a university professor earned just 10 dollars a month and was thus forced to find other ways to make ends meet, such as selling newspapers, driving a taxi, and so on. Instead, now, depending on various factors, he earns somewhere between 700 and 1400 dollars per month.
It's hard to find news that isn't blatantly biased. The mainstream media outlets won't post good news and the conservative outlets won't post bad news.
I found the above links in about 5 minutes of searching. If you want to find really good but biased towards real Iraqi opinions visit Iraq The Model.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay wrote: |
| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| The Iraqi economy is expanding rapidly now that Saddam has been deposed. People have more freedom than ever before, the standard of living is actually higher now than it ever was! There are more schools open now. Water and utilities are more available now. |
Yeah if we ignore the fact that there is a major risk of death everytime they set foot outside, then its all good! In all seriousness, progress has been made.
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Of course, it's not like there still isn't a War going on, is there?
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| Please show me where Bush proclaimed this. |
You are kidding right?
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No. Read what you just sent me and what you quoted, he never said, "Mission Accomplished" and he never proclaimed. He was correct in stating that Major operations were over; we were no longer running dozens of bombing sorties every day, we no longer were moving dozens of miles each day against a large armed force.
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So frankly - how you and everybody else can continue to complain about unrealistic timeline expectations held by people opposed to this war is beyond me considering that the Commander and Chief himself told us OVER TWO YEARS AGO that was a done deal. So here it is: Either admit Bush lied through his teeth on that aircraft carrier as we are clearly still planning and executing major combat offensives within the battlefield known as Iraq or please cop to the fact that alot of the negative press and angry sentiments about how this war and its actual progress aren't completely unfounded given the statements made by the administration.
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We are no longer executing major combat offensives within the battlefield. Most of our troops are securing positions or training Iraqi military. Current operations are joint operations with the Iraqi military.
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| I agree, but we also need the media to start reporting ALL OF THE NEWS and not just death statistics. |
The media isn't perfect - nor am I nor are you. However Bush did say "Mission Accomplished" and told America "Major Combat Operations in Iraq have Ended".
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No, he didn't say, "Mission Accomplished"! Read the damned links you posted to me! He never said it!
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| It doesn't get much more clear than that. The war isn't over, isn't close to being over and unless we ratchet up the level of troops by instituting a draft we are going to be there for a VERY long time. |
The Democrats here have already tried to institute a draft but failed.
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And something inside tells me that military recruitment will take an even bigger dive after all those reservists and national guardsmen being kept in Iraq through stop loss come home and have their say in the matter.
Who will defend America then? The whimsical Administration that got us into this mess? I think not. |
With the media selling antiwar propaganda as daily headlines it's no surprise recruitment is down.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| gisboth wrote: |
| ... As for similarities, don't listen to me. After all, any one who criticizes this administration is giving aid to the enemy... |
Is there a point in arguing with you? No.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Nobody else is but sure, I can back them up ... |
Fair enough, but the burden of proof lies on the person making the claims. If that person isn't taking on that burden, hold that person to it. I'm just in part being silly and questioning certain assumptions, and openly admit a lot of what I am saying is opinion.
I shall read your links, but I'll admit that claims of better standards of living by economists I take with a grain of salt. While I was in the US, I met way to many international economists who threw figures around of how wonderful America is and how the rest of the world lives in a poorer standard of living compared to them. I even remember one time someone saying that since there was no McDonalds in Hong Kong (there is, and it's the cheapest in the world) and that HK standards of living was poor. LOL. Why would McDonalds to some economist mean a higher standard of living I don't know. None the less, it's funny and a precautionary tale of what 'standards of living' means to different countries.
Anywhoo, thanks for the links. i shall read them. And then to get a more real perspective I'll ask my friend who has travelled to Iraq before the war, and after the war, for his opinions on the standards of living there. Try to get a wide range of points and opinions. He'll be just as biased too, so I won't take his opinions as any better, but perhaps more realistic.
Besides, after almost a decade of UN and US sanctions on Iraq, the economy can only get better once the sanctions by the people who put them there go in and then remove them for their own interests. So the GPD thing is something i'll look at after the US has left. See if they really have secured a region or left it to collapse in on itself. However, neither you or I or anyone can predict that. So it's a wait and see. Is that a fair enough statement?
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality)
Last edited by OscarWilde on Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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By the way, again I'm with FD on this, 'major combat' is over. What is being fought now is insurgency and terrorism and not really considered major combat.
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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Jay
Ex OSYer
Captain
Joined: 09 May 2003
Posts: 1589
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| With the media selling antiwar propaganda as daily headlines it's no surprise recruitment is down. |
The military has earned this. Though admittedly they are in a nasty position, and it is one that the Administration put them it. You can't have your recruiters spew "yeah you'll only be here for a year and you aren't really enlisted unless you opt in at the end of that year" and expect things to go well when those kids find out later that the fine print states that they can be there for as long as the military feels the need to force them to be there.
I think though our conversation has ended. I mean if we can't even agree that "Major Combat Operations" are still occuring in Iraq (more troops and people in general dying, more offensives occuring, more chaos in general) then we have no common ground to start on, do we? We are much more into this war now than we were in 2003 when Bush made that very stupid statement and denying that simply leaves us with nothing left to discuss.
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Magus
Tolkien Loremaster
Vice Admiral
Joined: 17 Aug 2001
Posts: 9521
Location: On the Stairway to Heaven.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
| you and I have been labeled as left wing extremists |
If the shoe fits... But wait, I thought you didn't understand left and right?! Your favorite dodge, I've noticed.
| OscarWilde wrote: |
So Magus ties our hands before we can even discuss:
1) Don't use foreign press because it will upset him
2) Don't argue as passionately because it will upset him
3) Don't give me left leaning views because it will upset him |
1) No, stop telling us we don't know what our own damn country is doing because we don't have <foreign press agency>.
2) No, stop using it to dodge and shift goalposts.
3) Left leaning views would be fine, except for the condescending manner in which they're presented. I have no problem with hearing opposing views. I have quite a problem with them being presented with no openness to discussion whatsoever.
twinkster is a shining example out of these threads. He and I disagree, but we actually listen to each other and try to see the other side. I've offered that same behavior to you and Jeremy, and I'm still waiting for an iota of reciprocation.
| OscarWilde wrote: |
| For magus, the extreme difficulty the US is having in Iraq is because of the extremely absurd idea that people on thee internet are debating over the questionable acts of a solider. Didn't know the US military was tied to the internet. Maybe it is a big game to many Americans. |
Kindly don't twist my words like that again. Not even vaguely amusing, and a perfect example of the tactics I had in mind. You know perfectly well I never said warfare was some game, and yet you make the implication, then turn it into high and mighty moral judgement against me. If you didn't understand what I said, have the decency to ask me. Don't twist it into some bullshit attack.
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You see, no matter what, I'm winning this argument because in the end I can be sillly.  |
In other words, you hear no arguments.
_________________
<Paolo|Work> anything that has to do with Java is by definition stupid
1 The Network is my domain, I shall not want; 2 though it makes me wait upon collision, it leads me to the Internet; 3 it restores my connection. It leads me in paths of hypertext transfer for google's sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of power failures, I fear no data corruption; for backups art with me; thy UPS and thy status light, they comfort me. 5 Thou preparest a firewall before me in the presence of my enemies; thou anointest my CD-R with BurnProof, my buffer never underflows. 6 Surely good deals and pr0n shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the Datacenter for ever.
-HitScan
Wilde is a 4' chinese man in a bright pink tutu, lime green pimp hat with peacock feathers, and a purple feather boa, wearing tissue stuffed snakeskin combat boots, holding a gun bigger than he is, smoking a cigarette in the parking garage, trying to look menacing while pouting and head banging to Godsmack I stand alone
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay wrote: |
| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| With the media selling antiwar propaganda as daily headlines it's no surprise recruitment is down. |
The military has earned this. Though admittedly they are in a nasty position, and it is one that the Administration put them it. You can't have your recruiters spew "yeah you'll only be here for a year and you aren't really enlisted unless you opt in at the end of that year" and expect things to go well when those kids find out later that the fine print states that they can be there for as long as the military feels the need to force them to be there.
I think though our conversation has ended. I mean if we can't even agree that "Major Combat Operations" are still occuring in Iraq (more troops and people in general dying, more offensives occuring, more chaos in general) then we have no common ground to start on, do we? We are much more into this war now than we were in 2003 when Bush made that very stupid statement and denying that simply leaves us with nothing left to discuss.
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That isn't entirely true. There are still problems there, but it's not major combat. The burden of proof does lie on you to back up your claims as well. Why does everyone here assume these 'facts' as a given.
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality)
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| OscarWilde wrote: |
| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| Nobody else is but sure, I can back them up ... |
Fair enough, but the burden of proof lies on the person making the claims...
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So everyone else's claims are irrefutable?
I really shouldn't get myself worked up over this crap but I swear at least once a year there is a thread that gets my goat and I just happen to be in one of those moods ...
You folks are all correct and I'm completely wrong. How could I have possibly argued with you? George Bush is indeed the root of all evil in the world and Iraq would be better off if we had never shown up.
America should just shut it's borders and stop traveling overseas, clearly we overstayed our welcome.
Have a pleasent day.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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gisboth
Petty Officer 2nd class
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| The Democrats here have already tried to institute a draft but failed. |
I'm curious. Does it hurt when you pull stuff like this out of your ass?
No similarities to Viet Nam, at all.
The Selfless-Sacrifice Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "Our mission in Iraq is clear: we're helping Iraqis build a free nation that is an ally in the war on terror. We're advancing freedom in the broader Middle East. We are removing a source of violence and instability and laying the foundation of peace for our children and our grandchildren."
Johnson (1965): "We fight (in Vietnam) because we must fight if we are to live in a world where every country can shape its own destiny, and only in such a world will our own freedom be finally secure."
The Threat-to-America Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September the 11th, if we abandon the Iraqi people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like bin Laden. For the sake of our nation's security, this will not happen on my watch. We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve."
Nixon (1969): "Our defeat and humiliation in South Vietnam without question would promote recklessness in the councils of those great powers who have not yet abandoned their goals of world conquest. This would spark violence wherever our commitments help maintain the peace -- in the Middle East, in Berlin, eventually even in the Western Hemisphere."
The I-Listen-To-Military-Experts Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "Some Americans ask me, 'If completing the mission is so important, why don't you send more troops?' If our commanders on the ground say we need more troops, I will send them."
Johnson (1968): "On many occasions I have told the American people that we would send to Vietnam those forces that are required to accomplish our mission there. So, with that as our guide, we have previously authorized a force level of approximately 525,000."
The They-Are-Animals Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "The terrorists... are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who exploded car bombs along a busy shopping street in Baghdad, including one outside a mosque. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who sent a suicide bomber to a teaching hospital in Mosul. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the world to see."
Johnson (1965): "And it is a war of unparalleled brutality. Simple farmers are the targets of assassination and kidnapping. Women and children are strangled in the night because their men are loyal to the government. And helpless villagers are ravaged by sneak attacks. Large-scale raids are conducted on towns, and terror strikes in the heart of cities."
The Gift-of-Freedom Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): " America's mission in Iraq is to defeat an enemy and give strength to a friend -- a free, representative government that is an ally in the war on terror and a beacon of hope in a part of the world that is desperate for reform."
Johnson (1965): "Our objective is the independence of South Viet-Nam, and its freedom from attack. We want nothing for ourselves-only that the people of South Viet-Nam be allowed to guide their own country in their own way."
The Vietnamization/Iraqization Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "Today, Iraq has more than 160,000 security forces trained and equipped for a variety of missions. Iraqi forces have fought bravely, helping to capture terrorists and insurgents
"
Johnson (1968): "
the Government of South Vietnam started the drafting of 19-year-olds on March 1st. On May 1st, the Government will begin the drafting of 18-year-olds. Last month, 10,000 men volunteered for military service--that was two and a half times the number of volunteers during the same month last year. Since the middle of January, more than 48,000 South Vietnamese have joined the armed forces--and nearly half of them volunteered to do so."
The We-Are-Making-Substantial-Progress Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "...We have continued our efforts to equip and train Iraqi security forces. We've made gains in both the number and quality of those forces. Today, Iraq has more than 160,000 security forces trained and equipped for a variety of missions. And the best way to complete the mission is to help Iraqis build a free nation that can govern itself, sustain itself and defend itself."
Johnson (1968): "Our presence there has always rested on this basic belief: The main burden of preserving their freedom must be carried out by them--by the South Vietnamese themselves. South Vietnam supports armed forces tonight of almost 700,000 men--and I call your attention to the fact that this is the equivalent of more than 10 million in our own population. Its people maintain their firm determination to be free of domination by the North. There has been substantial progress
"
Nixon (1969): "Or we can persist in our search for a just peace through a negotiated settlement if possible, or through continued implementation of our plan for Vietnamization
a plan in which we will withdraw all of our forces from Vietnam... as the South Vietnamese become strong enough to defend their own freedom."
The Light-At-The-End-Of-The-Tunnel Gambit
Bush: (6/28/05): "Our strategy can be summed up this way: As the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down."
Nixon (1969): "As South Vietnamese forces become stronger, the rate of American withdrawal can become greater."
The Dont-Lose-Your-Nerve-Now Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "The work in Iraq is difficult and it is dangerous. Like most Americans, I see the images of violence and bloodshed. Every picture is horrifying, and the suffering is real. Amid all this violence, I know Americans ask the question: Is the sacrifice worth it? It is worth it. And it is vital to the future security of our country."
Johnson (1965): "The war is dirty and brutal and difficult. And some 400 young men, born into an America that is bursting with opportunity and promise, have ended their lives on Viet-Nams steaming soil."
Nixon (1970): "This week I will have to sign 83 letters to mothers, fathers, wives and loved ones of men who have given their lives for America in Vietnam
.There is nothing I want more than to see the day come when I do not have to write any of those letters. I want to end the war to save the lives of those brave young men in Vietnam. But I want to end it in a way which will increase the chance that their younger brothers and their sons will not have to fight in some future Vietnam someplace in the world."
The Giant-Mistake Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "I recognize that Americans want our troops to come home as quickly as possible. So do I. Some contend that we should set a deadline for withdrawing U.S. forces. Let me explain why that would be a serious mistake. Setting an artificial timetable would send the wrong message
to the enemy, who would know that all they have to do is to wait us out."
Nixon (1969): "An announcement of a fixed timetable for our withdrawal would completely remove any incentive for the enemy to negotiate an agreement. They would simply wait until our forces had withdrawn and then move in."
The We-Must-Win Gambit
Bush (6/28/05): "And we fight today because terrorists want to attack our country and kill our citizens, and Iraq is where they are making their stand. So we'll fight them there, we'll fight them across the world, and we will stay in the fight until the fight is won."
Johnson (1965): "We will not be defeated. We will not grow tired. We will not withdraw, either openly or under the cloak of a meaningless agreement."
Nixon (1969): "It is not the easy way. It is the right way. It is a plan which will end the war and serve the cause of peace -- not just in Vietnam but in the Pacific and in the world."
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you'd have multiple orgasms in Hong Kong - OscarWilde
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Gisboth, do you have any suggestions where I can copy and paste my arguments from? I read a lot of mention from you guys about Rush Limbough and .. Charles Nelson O'Reilly? I know you guys hate them so I figure they must be the opposition and must have the appropriate counter-points.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux! |
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OscarWilde
Unbearable Bliss of Ignorance
Vice Admiral
Joined: 02 Mar 2001
Posts: 9450
Location: Somewhere that seems to be no where
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Edit: it's getting to emotionally heated and silly here. I think more harm then good is happening. So I removed my comments.
_________________
'An urban myth. Like the dyslexic devil worshipper who sold his soul to Santa.' - Robert Rankin (Raiders of the Lost Car Park)
'Hate traps us by binding us too tightly to our adversary.' - Milan Kundera (Immortality) |
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Jeremy Reimer
King of Canada
1st Lord of the Admiralty
Joined: 01 Aug 2002
Posts: 7833
Location: 789-M
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
No, he didn't say, "Mission Accomplished"! Read the damned links you posted to me! He never said it!
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Um, does it really matter if he didn't SAY it?
To me, that's the same as saying it. Seriously.
gisboth, the Vietnam/Bush quote comparison is seriously eerie.
_________________
"Those afraid of the universe as it really is, those who pretend to nonexistent knowledge and envision a Cosmos centered on human beings will prefer the fleeting comforts of superstition. They avoid rather than confront the world. But those with the courage to explore the weave and structure of the Cosmos, even where it differs profoundly from their wishes and prejudices, will penetrate its deepest mysteries."
-- Carl Sagan
"Its not a rule. Its just something I noticed. Several of us have more than one sig." - Mord
"No, you are a troll, and I should have never let you back to Ars in after the first 16,000 bannings." - Caesar, to He Who Shall Not Be Named
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DuffMan
Captain
Joined: 25 Feb 2001
Posts: 1883
Location: In mah pants!
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:32 am Post subject: |
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If "major combat operations" are over what are the troops dying for? Minor combat operations? We still have the same number of ground troops in Iraq, and if anything they are involved in more combat now than during so-called major combat operations. They only thing you could correctly say is that major air combat operations are over, because there are no bombing targets.
I know this is quibling over a minor point, but what I am getting at is that there is a lot of spin from the administration, to the point where the truth becomes non-existant. There is the truth one side wants to believe and the truth the other side wants to believe, and the real truth is lost in the static.
And I really get sick of the whole blame the media concept. It has turned into a convienent tool to discredit any logic whatsoever. It doesn't matter that 60-odd percent of the population believe the war was a mistake, or do not trust the president, because they were misled by the media. The sky isn't really blue, people have been tricked by the media into thinking it was.
There are plenty of alternative media outlets out there, and they exist mostly to spin things their own way, and parrot people's own beliefs back to them to affirm their personal slant. Compared to them, the mainstream media is pretty objective.
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MasterOfTheHat
Commander
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 794
Location: In a galaxy far, far, far, far, really really far away...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| OW wrote: |
| MasterOfTheHat says you're okay because you're right leaning. I wish I could understand this binary views you guys hold. |
All right, first of all, let me just make it clear that was a joke. Yes, Magus and I and a few others here are much more conservative, (right-wing), than some others, and this was just poking fun at that. I'm sure you realized that, OW, but I just wanted to make it clear.
And now, for my spiel... (damn but y'all were busy yesterday!) I've spent all morning reading this thread, and I do mean "all morning." There's a lot going on here.
Now, first of all, most of you are going to assume that my post will far right-wing, convservative, pro-Bush, pro-America, etc, etc based on my previous posts in political threads, (I'll get into the left vs. right thing in a minute, OW). And maybe you are right, but I'm going to try and keep it somewhere in the middle, which is sort of where I find myself in this argument. Because I'm lazy, I'm not going to go and look for any links to back up anything I say, either. This is all my opinion and what I have heard on TV or read online.
1) Should America reinstate a draft?
No. A draft is the wrong way to do it, and there will be much, much opposition to it from both sides of the Senate floor. I do, however, feel that each and every American youth should give 4 years of his life to military service, mandatory. I was not/am not in the service, and I'm sure I never will be. But I think that a lot of pride and understanding of your country can be gained by serving in her military, whether in peace or in war. I also believe that there is no greater place, other than at home, to learn discipline, teamwork, and how to work with others to accomplish a common goal, (this is different from teamwork. I'll explain if necessary). It is my belief that, if every young man and young woman were to serve in the military for this minimum amount of time, this country would be a much better, safer, less political place. I can go into more details if anyone wants to expand on this point.
2) Left vs. Right
OW, JR, and all others who live outside of the U.S.: I don't think that you can understand this split. Our politics are usually strictly split, or at least spun, as Left (liberal) or Right (conservative). That's what we've seen for decades and decades, which means that is all that most of us here have ever known. With that being the case, you pretty much can't help but align yourself with one side or the other based on what you believe. At least to the point that you are able to think for yourself and make your own informed decisions, a feat that is impossible for so many of us. Is it right (correct) or not and does it help the country? I think this is THE root of all of our screwed up gov't/political system. If we could look at decisions as "what's right for the country" instead of "what's right for my party" or "how can I piss off the other party as much as possible", then we'd be in a lot better shape. But that doesn't happen. I hope that as the next generation, my generation, comes into power, some of this will go away. We've seen what this crap can do, and we know it doesn't work. There is always hope.
3) Why did we go to war with Iraq and was it justified?
This will be argued until the end of time... Here's my spin on it: We attacked Iraq because 1) we had reason to believe they were supporting terrorist groups like Al Qaeda and possible Al Qaeda itself and 2) we had reason to believe that Saddam Hussein did have WMDs. On #1, because of our past dealings with Iraq, because of what we knew of Saddam Hussein and his regime, and because of intel that we had, we had reason to believe that Al Qaeda, its supporters, etc were either hiding out in Iraq, being supported financially by Iraq, being trained in/by Iraq, stationed or setting up stations in Iraq, or some combination of the above. On #2, because we knew that he did have them at one time, because he was unwilling to work with inspectors who went over to search for them, because intel told us that he had them, we had every reason to believe that Saddam had WMDs.
Now, you can argue all day long that we never found WMDs and we never found proof that Saddam supported Al Qaeda in any way, but "hindsight is 20/20." It is my understanding that, given what the President knew at the time, he was justified in believing that these things were true. It doesn't matter what someone else knows, if the President, who figuratively 'pulls the trigger' on the attack, doesn't know any better, you can't blame him. If any of us were in his situation, (first of all, Heaven help us if that were the case!  ), I think that most of us may have reacted the same way.
3a) Was Bush wrong we he said that major combat in Iraq was over while standing in front of a big banner that read "Mission Accomplishe"?
No. Major combat in Iraq is over. Major combat operations have been over since we found Hussein in his little hole, basically. To me, the President didn't say anything wrong.
3b) Is the war over yet?
No. We are still fighting and soldiers are still dieing.
3c) How is 3b different than 3a?
We are fighting small guerilla groups in small raids and attacks at random times. We are no longer marching against a large, organized force. When the war started, we went in full blast, walked across the country from south to north, and took out the Iraqi army and captured its leader. We took tanks, Hummers, armored vehicles, tons of troops, big missiles, bombers, fighters, etc and we cleaned house. We aren't doing that anymore. Now we are using small groups of soldiers, with or without heavier firepower, against smaller forces who are using guerilla warfare, traps (roadside bombs), suicide bombers, etc at seemingly random intervals and spread sporadically over the country.
4) Are the Iraqi citizens glad that we are/have been there?
Yes. For the most part they are. Or that's what a couple of soldiers who have served there have told me. Pretty much every Iraqi they have come in contact with is singing their praises and are very, very happy that we are there. They say that they are finally free from Saddam's regime, and they are excited about their new country and new government. Of course, there are those in Iraq who think we never should have been there, and those who just don't want us there. There's no doubt about that. That's going to happen anywhere with anything. Just like here, you pretty much always have opposing sides to any issue.
5) Are all of the attacks from foreign mercenaries, etc?
I would say "Hell no!" Why? 1) Because we know that the Shiites, (I think.. or is it the Suuni muslims?), hate us and want us out and have claimed responsibility for several bombs/attacks, etc. 2) There are still factions loyal to Saddam and his regime in the country. 3) There are still those there who don't like us and don't want us there. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me if a large number of the attacks are from foreign governments/groups. A lot of people are probably like, "There's some faction in Iraq who doesn't like America, and they're fighting them. We don't like America, either. Sounds like a good reason to go blow some shit up! And, hey, we probably won't even get blamed for it!"
_________________
For my fellow OSYers - You know you're addicted to programming when:"The people you respect most you have never physically seen or spoken to, but you always bow to their knowledge."
*Quantum physics texts are an excellent source of 100% of the recommended daily alowance of "WTF!?!" - HitScan
support.microsoft's cause for a 0x0000007f STOP error:
" Your computer has hardware or software problems. "
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MasterOfTheHat
Commander
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 794
Location: In a galaxy far, far, far, far, really really far away...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:13 am Post subject: |
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6) Should we pull out and leave them like they are?
No! Not at all. We set out with a mission to rebuild Iraq into a democratic state. We set out with a mission to build up Iraq's military so that it could defend itself. We are definitely not there yet. But we are definitely making major strides in that direction! Democratic voting is a major, major step towards freedom. And the last election went off really well! Millions turned out to vote, and millions more are expected to next month. That's a major accomplishment and shows that the people are willing to stand up against scare tactics and bullyism. (Those same muslim extremists were trying it on voters before the vote...) We've trained about 100 battalions, (right word?), of Iraqi troops and security personnel, and some of them are actually acting with only a small group of U.S. soldiers to help and guide them. On pretty much every single raid or fight you hear about on the news now, the military presence is now "U.S. and Iraqi forces." We are moving towards our goal.
7) Are we taking forever to achieve our goal?
Very possibly 'yes'. 4 years is a long time. 2500 dead soldiers is a large number of lives lost. Billions and billions of dollars is a lot of friggin money. Do we want our troops to come back home? Hell yes! Even I wish that we would get the hell outta there and get those boys home! But I look at it this way: it takes a helluva long time to tear a country's government and military down and completely rebuild it from the nothing you needed to create. I'm sure it takes a helluva long time to train all of those soldiers. And it takes a helluva long time to create and build a democratic gov't. I wouldn't even know where to begin on either of them, so I won't try to guess at how long, though. Maybe those who do know think we are taking way too long. And if that is the case, then we need to step it up and get it over with and get back home. But I would much rather us finish the job and do it well than to rush it and do a half-ass job and have all of our losses be in vain.
And now about the forum...
 Can a political thread on OSY not turn to crap?
I really don't think so. We have too many very opionated, extremely hard-headed, well-educated smammers who love to argue and have very, very different views on a wide variety of things. Myself included. Well, maybe not the well-educated part...
9) Have we gotten any better in our political 'debates'?
Most definitely. Just in the time period that I've been here, we've gone from bashing someone in the second post to waiting to bash someone in the 5th or 6th post! No, seriously, just recently two of our most vocal arguers, JR and OW, have calmed down quite a bit. I know that I've had my own 'shouting matches' with both of them, called them both several names, and had quite a few 'choice words' with them. But in the last couple of threads, you both have been pretty docile and stuck to the debate at hand. I commend you both for that, and I'll say that it has encouraged me to try and watch what I type. Now, does that mean that the 3 of us can go hang out together and be best buds? I'm going to venture out on a limb and say hell no... You're both still punks!
Magus, I love you, brother, but you were out of line here. It really didn't seem like your normal way of attacking things, so I'm betting it was just a bad day or something along those lines. You are free to attack me all you want to. You know me IRL, and you know where I stand, and I know we can get over it.
And Twink, mad props to you, man! You always seem to take the middle ground, regardless of what's going on around you. Several times I've agreed with you, and several others I've disagreed with you, but you always take YOUR side in a debate.
_________________
For my fellow OSYers - You know you're addicted to programming when:"The people you respect most you have never physically seen or spoken to, but you always bow to their knowledge."
*Quantum physics texts are an excellent source of 100% of the recommended daily alowance of "WTF!?!" - HitScan
support.microsoft's cause for a 0x0000007f STOP error:
" Your computer has hardware or software problems. "
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MasterOfTheHat
Commander
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 794
Location: In a galaxy far, far, far, far, really really far away...
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Dang! That's a lot of typing!
_________________
For my fellow OSYers - You know you're addicted to programming when:"The people you respect most you have never physically seen or spoken to, but you always bow to their knowledge."
*Quantum physics texts are an excellent source of 100% of the recommended daily alowance of "WTF!?!" - HitScan
support.microsoft's cause for a 0x0000007f STOP error:
" Your computer has hardware or software problems. "
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| gisboth wrote: |
| FondueDaredevil wrote: |
| The Democrats here have already tried to institute a draft but failed. |
I'm curious. Does it hurt when you pull stuff like this out of your ass?
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Here, I've copy and pasted the bills from the House of Representatives and Senate for you. Note the sponsors and co-sponsors are all democrats.
H.R.163
Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] (introduced 1/7/2003)
Co-Sponsors: Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/7/2003
Rep Brown, Corrine [FL-3] - 1/28/2003
Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 5/19/2004
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/28/2003
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/7/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 1/28/2003
Rep Hastings, Alcee L. [FL-23] - 1/28/2003
Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 7/21/2004
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/28/2003
Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/7/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/7/2003
Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/28/2003
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/7/2003
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M.
[edit] Nevermind, can't expect something from you that you are incapable of giving.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
Last edited by FondueDaredevil on Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FondueDaredevil
Linux Looney
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 5381
Location: My name is Elmer J Fudd, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Jeremy Reimer wrote: |
| Quote: |
No, he didn't say, "Mission Accomplished"! Read the damned links you posted to me! He never said it!
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Um, does it really matter if he didn't SAY it?
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Yes, considering it was hammered to me twice that he said it and in fact he never did.
The banner hanging back there was for the crew of the ship. Bush gave a speech congratulating them on accomplishing their mission ... "The banner signified the successful completion of the ship's deployment," he said, noting the Abraham Lincoln was deployed 290 days, longer than any other nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in history. The Navy had asked the administration to create it for them.
There is no evidence otherwise.
_________________
"Our products just aren't engineered for security."
- Brian Valentine, Senior VP in charge of MS Windows Development
"I call on those who question the motives of the president and his national security advisers to join with the rest of America in presenting a united front to our enemies abroad." Sen. Dick Durbin, 1998
"There's no set architecture in Linux. All roads lead to madness" - William Hilf, Microsoft homonculous
Supervillains for Linux!
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